Of Fire Engine Baptistries and Blasphemy
[Note: I actually had this entry prepared before stumbling across the announcement that Johnny Hunt will nominate Ronnie Floyd to be president of the SBC. Dr. Floyd pastors the FBC, Springdale, Arkansas.]
Several have asked about the existence of a fire engine baptistry that is designed to shoot confetti out of cannons when a child is baptized. Yes, this actually does exist. You can see it at First Baptist Church, Springdale, Arkansas. The Founders Journal reported on this back in 2000. Following are comments taken from the news items in the Fall 2000 issue (#42) of the journal.
Christianity Today (June 8, 2000) and other news sources have reported on what appears to be a new trend in some large evangelical churches. First Baptist Church in Springdale, Arkansas hired a well-known former Disney World designer of children's amusement rides to design two "high tech sets" for elementary age worship areas: Toon Town for first-through third-graders, and Planet 45 for fourth- and fifth-graders. The fully animated cartoon town has 26-foot-tall buildings. The rationale behind the $270,000 project is summed up by the church's children's minister: "Putting a talking head in front of kids for an hour doesn't work ….This is a visual generation. We need to use technology to the max." That includes a special baptistry which is built around a fire engine. When a child is baptized, the sirens sound and confetti is fired out of cannons.
When kids enter the rooms, a music video is playing on a giant screen in front, and they can amuse themselves at a row of nonviolent video game screens along walls. Once the service starts, "it's 90 minutes of mostly frenetic activity, akin to a live television variety show from the 1950s. In Toon Town, buzzers and bells sound, lights flash from the ceiling and from car headlights on the set, bubbles come out the top of a giant bucket and fill the room, confetti streamers squirt out onto the first few rows, and mist is sprayed onto the crowd." According to the designer, Bruce Barry, "It's just like going on a ride at Disney World."
In that same issue of the journal there appeared an interview between Mark Dever and Paige Patterson. Dr. Dever asked Dr. Patterson, who was then President of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary but has since moved to the same position at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Ft. Worth, Texas, about this approach to children's ministry and baptism. Here is the pertinent part of the exchange:
Dever: I heard about one church recently, and I don't know if you know about churches like this or not, in order to encourage baptisms among children the baptistry is shaped like a fire truck and they've got confetti cannons that go off whenever a kid is baptized. Do you know about any of this?
Patterson: This is my first time to hear this. This is blasphemous!
Dever: Anyway, it's a church in America. It's an evangelical church and they mean to preach the gospel so I want to be real quick to say their intentions are good. That's going to get kids of course, because they want to come forward, get in the fire truck and make the confetti cannons go off.
Patterson: I do not view [positively] the huge number of child baptisms that Baptists are now guilty of--Baptists are some of the worst paedo-baptizers there are.
Now, I share Dr. Patterson's concern about this, although I might stop short of calling it "blasphemous." I think that is is unwise and is likely to lead to many false professions of faith among children for the very reason that Dr. Dever cited. Regardless of whether or not we agree that this kind of practice rises to the level of blasphemy, I would guess that many Southern Baptists would agree with Dr. Patterson's assessment that it is a very unwise practice.
posted by Tom at 5/07/2006 09:45:00 PM
118 Comments:
Why would you stop short of calling it blasphemous? Why let a little thing like a definition of a word stop you?
:-)
There's got to be another word for it though. Maybe sacrilegious?
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This is all very tragic.
I agree with all that has been written above by the brothers in Christ....
But it is only the TIP of the iceberg, as will be discovered if the research is continued.
God help us to learn all we can before the "big vote" for the president of the Southern Baptist Convention in North Carolina next month.
tony,
But what is the answer? Now mind you, children's ministry is not one of my gifts, and due to my upbringing, it is very difficult for me to be able to relate to youth and children. I say that as a confession of my complete cluelessness to begin with, so you know where I'm coming from (the generic "Help!" category) as a future pastor, and that I do not mean to insinuate anything in my question or be challenging.
And on top of this, the press release for Brother Ronnie's nomination noted he had spoken on TBN. Wow, just, just wow. I'm at a loss on this one. I wonder if this will even be mentioned in Greensboro?
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Tom, thanks for providing the evidence.
I'm simply stunned........
I told ABP the other day that there was a man in Southern Baptist life who could rise up and lead us all into a time of self-reflection and renewal. Indeed, a time of reformation.
I am less inclined to believe that Ronnie Floyd is that man after seeing this evidence. Of course, I'm just one pastor from one church with ten messengers slots.
I still believe that a man is being prepared by the Lord to lead our convention. Such a man will bring Union to the SBC.
I'm praying twice as hard these days, and thanks again for that challenge you brought us in Memphis. It keeps swirling in my mind, and motivating me to godly focus and sincere obedience.
To benjamin s cole
If Dr. Floyd does indeed become president, would you be willing to say that God was preparing him for that position?
Concerning leading the Convention into a time of self-reflection and renewal, Dr. Floyd's ministry has been marked by calling believers to that. Have you ever read the account of when God sent revival to his church? If not, you should. You can read about it in his book "the power of prayer and fasting."
Thanks for the recommendation of the book...i'll check it out.
And if Ronnie Floyd is elected president, I hope that God has prepared both him and the convention for it.
If Pastor Floyd alone is nominated, I will not have to vote for him. The recording secretary will "cast the ballot for the convention." If another candidate is fielded, I readily admit that I will give him a preferred hearing.
But again, I'm just one pastor of one church in one location. I don't represent the SBC or any group within the SBC, though I'm fairly confident that the full slate of messengers from my church will give weighty consideration to whomever I endorse for president.
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To Gene
What makes speaking at TBN so unbelievable? Is it unacceptable to speak on venues that don't hold to everything you do? I always found it interestinbg that John MacArthur spoke at Baily Smith's conferences.
Ronnie Floyd is no sell-out. The opportunity to present truth world-wide presented itself. I don't know why it's so wrong to take advantage of that. Plus, Merritt, Rogers, Stanley and Young all have had programs on that station. Until they go Word of Faith, I don't see that as a big deal.
For the record, I am a member of FBC St Peters, and those stats need to be rechecked and you need to know what you are talking about befor posting them online, Sir. My pastor is coming up on his 10 year anniversary there, and he is working very slowly toward reformation of chruch practice. Within the last several months they have begun purging the church roles, even going so far as to take pew attendance for awhile in order to be able to start Biblically practicing discipline. You see, the staff realizes that when you are working with people, not just an organization, change often needs to go slowly. Show the church what's wrong, and then implement it slowly. So please, check your facts before you besmirch a church. It is by far the best church I have ever been privileged to attend.
Is the fire truck baptism an option for adults? If not, why so? Could this be discrimination.
Could there be a market for water proof purpose driven bibles complete with spoof text margin references in red letter and large print editions?
I'm calling Lifeway!!!
To Chuck...
My point was simply to present a candidate who is not a Calvinist but who is a model of proper church roll management, a quality that seems to be very important to Founders. In using the comparison I just wanted to present a non-reformed church with healthy numbers as compared with a reformed church with unhealthy numbers. Please don't take that as a personal attack on your church. Plus, if Ronnie Floyd and Johnny Hunt's church's numbers are not above being scrutinized, why should FBC St. Peters (or any church) not also be subject to the same treatment.
For the record(now that I have the numbers in front of me)...2005 ACP Church profile for FBC St. Peters
Total Members-1201
Resident Members-736
AM Worship attendance-270
SS Average Attendance-220
Respectfully, before you accuse someone of not knowing what their talking about, you need to check your facts.
I think we need a president, calvinist or not, who will call the convention to repentance and to the pursuit of holiness.
I think our evangelistic programs have not been effective because our witness is not credible.
We need to start matching our behavior with our beliefs and then perhaps we will earn a hearing by a watching world, much of which thinks we are just trying to get more people for our click, so that they will give money.
FBC St Peters is a Founders church?
I think a visit is in order.
I have been in the unfortunate position of not being able to find an SBC church that didn't either promote the PDL-style church, or endorsed women as pastors, or ... whatever. There's just so much cruft since I moved to this area, that I have been unable to attend an SBC church due to huge, gaping doctrinal problems.
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I was thinking at one time that Ronnie Floyd was an itinerent "evangelist" and did not pastor a church.
Regardless, I am very disturbed that the pastor of a church that has fallen hook, line, and sinker for the pragmatic, entertainment approach to any ministry that is described and critiqued so well in MacArthur's "Ashamed of the Gospel" is having his name bandied about for consideration of the next prez of the SBC.
In reponse to loveforthelost's question about consideration of a "good" SBC President, I would consider these to be most important in these days:
1) While he may not be a dreaded "Calvinist," that he is conversant on both sides of the aisle and is able to defend his position with gentleness and respect, based on Scripture alone, while leaving teachings based on tradition at the door.
2) That he comes from a church that endures sound doctrine and is not carried to and fro with winds and waves of doctrine.
3) That he demands for many SBC pastors to repent for failing to rightly divide the word of truth through sound, verse by verse, expositional preaching as the means to equipping the saints for ministry.
4) That he demands for many SBC pastors to repent for preaching another gospel that is not based on grace alone, by faith alone, in Christ alone and agree to base future evangelistic efforts on the true gospel.
5) That he has taught and practiced Biblical church discipline in his own local church
That would seem to be a good start.
I am in total agreement with Ben concerning the unifying of our convention. The world is watching and this would be a great time to demonstrate a unity. Perhaps we can begin with these concepts.
1. We are committed to the inerrancy of Scripture. We reaffirm this in light of minor disagreements we may have had, which may have caused some to doubt our unity here.
2. In light of some concerns about Blogs and in concert with the fifth declaration of the Memphis Declaration (quoted below) those of us who Blog and especially maintain Blog sites will be more careful concerning the posting of comments from others on our Blog sites which fit the description below.
"We publicly repent of having turned a blind eye to wickedness in our convention, especially when that evil has taken the form of slanderous, unsubstantiated accusations and malicious character assassination against our Christian brothers.
Therefore, we commit ourselves to confront lovingly any person in our denomination, regardless of the office or title that person holds, who disparages the name of our Lord by appropriating venomous epithets against our brothers and sisters in Christ, and thus divides our fellowship by careless and unchaste speech.”
3. In light of the continual cultural and social attack upon the veracity of God’s Word, from the Courtroom to the Classroom to the Pulpit, we express a sincere gratitude to those who led the “Conservative Resurgence” in the SBC and their defense of such veracity.
Perhaps our unifying theme could be “Remember the Resurgence!”
BR
Thinking of Ben's comment, I am reminded of David when he found the armies of Israel paralyzed before Goliath.
We need a David who is able to take on the challenge. He must do so with the knowledge that although personal risk is a reality when a man of God stands for the Lord, that man will always stand in the shadow of the Lord's watchcare.
Stepping forward would certainly put our "David" at risk of being the center of unchaste words. Still, he would stand in the shadow of the Lord Himself, and might unite the people of God to move against our real enemy - the powers of darkness.
I pray for such a man to rise up.
I am a member of FBC SPringdale, and we DO NOT have a fire engine baptistry. We don't even have a baptistry for the kids- we baptize them in the sacntuary with everyone else. How dare you talk about our church without having the facts! How un-christian can you be? I understand people's concerns with this - but it's not even true!
What's worse, it's too late to stop this rumor since everyone has probably already posted it on THEIR blogs... Please help pread this word- we have a great church and we see kids get saved (such as my own) through a sound doctrine and passionate ministers. No fire trucks are needed.
Bo Higgly...
Are you suggesting that Pastor Tad Thompson is bearing false witness when he tells us that he has actually seen the fire engine baptistry?
I'm sure your pastor is encouraged by your faithful support, and I'm confident that his leadership of the church is commendable on many accounts.
I make you this promise: I hope to ensure that your pastor has as much time to lead that wonderful ministry in the next two years as he has had in the last twenty.
I find it ironic that anyone who would oppose a reformed baptist view of churcch membership in favor of a "decision" in order to receive baptism would be so explosive on this subject.
I also find it ironic that he takes this kind of baptism abuse so seriously but was somewhat silent in the recent concern over IMB.
Something that no one has mentioned yet in this post is what else Dr. Patterson said during that interview:
"I do not view [positively] the huge number of child baptisms that Baptists are now guilty of--Baptists are some of the worst paedo-baptizers there are."
I think this is so very ironic given the Caner's implications (from our earlier discussion on the qualifications of a SBC President) that we (Calvinists) are more Presbyterian than Baptistic. The very practice that they would encourage leads me to agree with Dr. Patterson.
I got the 9Marks cd of this interview and it is wonderful. Tom, have you listened to it (for that matter has anyone else)? In this interview Dr. Dever (FOR PRESIDENT!) discusses soteriology with Dr. Patterson.
It is very interesting that he did not out-rightly disagree with Dever (I know that he was in Dever's house and might not have wanted to open that can of worms). I would love to hear of anyone else's take on this given the upcoming "dialogue" between Mohler and Patterson.
(gasp!)...aside from this fire engine baptistry lunacy, does abyone know why hunt is nominating this guy? is this some sort of ecclesiastically indifferent croney-ism?
The Mohler-Patterson debate is a dead issue right now. More pressing issues have emerged.
Tom, I would really appreciate your posting (again, if you already have) your thoughts on how Southern Baptists have lost the Gospel. That has been stirring in my mind a great deal lately.
Benjamin, I think it is interesting that you would on one hand say the dialogue is a dead issue and then on the other hand to ask Tom to dialogue about it.
Anyway... It isn't dead to me. I am interested to see, more even than the dialogue, the response to it. That will speak volumes won't it?
When we see young, Reformed pastors responding and attending it will do my heart good.
I believe this is a crucial point in our convention because it will go far to identify to us "how Southern Baptists have lost the Gospel."
"That has been stirring in my mind a great deal lately" also.
Dear Dr. Ascol,
The fact that this nomination is the first issue ever to have left Gene M. Bridges speechless shows that it is a very potent topic indeed! :)
Love in Christ,
Jeff
Bro. Bo Higgly:
The report came from CHRISTIANITY TODAY (June 8, 2000). Check that out, please, before you start declaring that somebody here is reporting falsehoods.
Here's the link.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/007/20.25.html
I must say that I read the Christianity Today article 3 times, and I did not see even one mention of a special baptistry for kids.
I urge my brothers in Jesus Christ to CONTINUE their investigative research and earnest prayers regarding the next president of the SBC!
There cannot be too much of each - research and prayer.
James,
Just a correction to your correction. I believe Bo Higgly was referencing the lack of integrity concerning the accusation to Springdale Baptizing children in a "fire-engine" baptistery which the article you referenced does not address.
BR
There are lots of comments worthy of interaction but since I am strapped for time, let me simply respond to one at this point. I want to let Bo Higgly know how I came to report the fire engine baptistry--first in 2000 and again yesterday.
Credibility means a great deal to me. I refuse to publish rumor as if it were fact, and I refuse to print some facts. As editor of the Founders Journal for over 15 years, I have only had to retract one report about statistics from the old Home Mission Board. The statistics were indeed unsubstantiated. I got them, however, directly from an HMB representative. Once the error was pointed out to me, I published a full retraction and apology. All of this to say that I take my credibility as a truth teller very seriously.
Others have rightly noted that CT documented the fire engine baptistry before I reported it. Watch this video to gain insight into FBCS's approach to children's ministry. From the philosohy articulated by the ministers ("whatever it takes"), it is obvious that a confetti shooting fire engine baptistry would fit right in. The video introduces the kidz worship at FBC Springdale. A friend informed me of this. It is very well done. My posting of it here is not with any intent to castigate, but simply to shed light on this issue. Go watch it for yourself.
If that is not evidence enough, then this is from FBCS's own website should settle the question once and for all:
"Toon Town is fully animated. In the TV Shop where kids play non-violent video games before the service, satellites turn, wires and the entire building glow, and an animated man from upstairs comes out of a window and talks. The "NSync with Jesus" feature has flashing lights when the music comes on. The firehouse door raises and kids are baptized in the back of the fire truck. Sirens, horns, and lights work. Pipes blow confetti over the kids, and a hammer dings the bell. Steam comes out of the fire hydrant. The car horn and lights work; exhaust even comes out of the tail pipe." (read it all)
Let me make clear that my posting of these links does not mean that it is open season on Ronnie Floyd or FBCS. Personal attacks are not welcome nor will they be tolerated on this blog. The issues raised by these matters are too important to get sidetracked by personalities, and disagreement with a brother's views--even very strong disagreement--is no license to attack his person. Let's stick to the issues and fight hard to avoid sinful disparaging of a man's or church's reputation.
hmmmm.... I'm having a hard time finding anything at FBC Springdale's cite about it or something reporting directly about the fire engine. The article at Christianity Today doesn't seem to address it.
Anyone know where else it might be?
SDG,
David Hewitt
Mike & Brad:
Thanks. My bad.
David-
Click on the "read it here" link just above your post and go about half way through the article. The paragraphs you are looking for are begin just under the phots.
Got it.
Thanks Tom for putting that on the site for clarification!
Dave
Tom,
I watched the video and read the article from their website. However, I believe there is a HUGE difference in 1) believers baptism of children being done in the back of a fire-engine set with confetti being sprayed on them while sirens, horns, bells and lights are blowing and flashing AND 2) children being immersed (baptized if you will) by confetti while they enjoy releasing energy in the back of the fire-engine set before their Bible lesson. Now whether you or I would implement the latter (2) is not the issue. The issue is whether or not there was an implication that the former (1) was being practiced when in reality it was the latter (2) and if so does not such an implication cast doubt on the implyers integrity? I believe this was Bo Higgly’s concern. I personally cannot speak to the issue for I do not know.
However, you are right to point out that no matter what methodologies he may use…they are not the issue.
But I think we can all be grateful that the one who designed the set and his wife were saved through this encounter at FBCS and by the year 2000 had already invited 300 families to attend church – oh, for more laborers like that.
BR
The CHURCH SITE states:
"The firehouse door raises and kids are baptized in the back of the fire truck. Sirens, horns, and lights work. Pipes blow confetti over the kids, and a hammer dings the bell. Steam comes out of the fire hydrant. The car horn and lights work; exhaust even comes out of the tail pipe."
http://www.fbc-springdale.org/kidsinc/html/children_s_ministry_magazine.htm
Tom,
If you read the article you just linked it seems that what is presented is not what they have but an idea that was submitted.
Note the headline for the article: "Take a peek into Children's Ministry Magazine's room- decorating contest's big time winners!" The article then quotes the winner of the Most Innovative Room category wrote, "We believe that if children can grow up knowing that church is a fun and exciting place to learn about God, they will continue on as they mature into teenagers and adults. We want them to walk away saying, 'Church is an exciting place to be and God is an exciting God to learn about.' Beige walls, metal folding chairs, and an overhead projector will not cut it anymore. This is the visual generation."
The ideas presented seem to be not necessarily what was built but an idea that was presented.
In fact, the article that describes the fire engine baptistry is prefaced with the statement: "Most Innovative Design"
While the idea a won for "best design" it appears that the engine never materialized.
I may be wrong but that seems to be the source of the conflicting info.
Tim
From the article Tom linked to a bit ago:
"The truth is: You don't have to make someone go where they enjoy being."
True enough. The question I would have is WHAT or WHO are they enjoying? If a child's desire to go to church is because of the fun that they'll have because of the lights, music, confetti, etc, then that is the WRONG reason to be going. Sure, they enjoy it, but they're not going because they enjoy worshiping GOD. Rather, they are going because they enjoy being ENTERTAINED.
That I see as the biggest potential problem...no, not potential. :)
I remember reading an article in one of the first Founders journals that Ernest Reisinger wrote, saying something along the lines of this:
"Whatever it is that you do to get someone into a church will be what you have to do to keep them there."
My fear is that these kids will just hit their youth years, not really having trusted Jesus but just wanting entertainment, and will make that current 85% youth to college loss rate we have right now explode into the nineties, at least for that church.
Do none of them get saved? Of course I am not going to say that, but I also have a hard time seeing how something like this going on over at FBCS is not producing more false converts than true ones.
I'd love to be wrong....but I doubt I am.
SDG,
Dave Hewitt
Christianity plus children equals what? Jesus plus "the little ones" equals what? Can "fun" be part of the answer? I think so. Why not? Is Jesus a old stoic; is He empty of joy and laughter; is He a depressed pessimist; is He a gloomy defeatist? No way. But neither is he a goofy circus clown or the religious version of Barny the dinosaur. I believe firetruck baptistries and confetti canons are over the top.
I did a beautiful, outdoor wedding a few months ago. One knuckle-head arrived in shorts, sandels, and an hawaiian t-shirt. Nothing wrong with his attire per say, but it was just out of place. It was distasteful; it was a distraction; it was just plain silly.
I don't want my children to think of Christ as a silly children's hero. I want them to learn from Christ the meaning of true joy, the real source of laughter, and the life-changing importance of baptism. May they not remember that day like another day at Six Flags, but may they remember that day like they will remember the day they got born-again, and the day they got married and the day their first child is born.
James,
Thanks for your comments.
However, you missed the point. If my website at my church said "we baptize youth with confetti" and the context implied it was not believer's baptism but a shower of confetti on all youth who entered the building then for someone to imply I practice believer's baptism with confetti is less than honest. Again, I do not know the practice at FBCS but if Bo is right then I understand his concern about false implications.
BR
INteresting that the link no longer works...
Dear Dr. A,
Alex is right. The link no longer works. I would like to check this out to see if the fire engine baptistry was just an idea, or if it really exists. I e-mailed the church, and am waiting for an answer. Why did they take down that link?
Love in Christ,
Jeff
As a children's minister, I have deep concerns for the Children's Ministry at FBC of Springdale. This is what I would call the extremist side to the attitude my wife and I faced when we began serving in our children's department. First of all, regardless if there is a fire-truck baptistery or not; we are ignoring the elephant sitting in the corner. Unfortunately, there is not enough time to address each issue in the detail it deserves, so maybe in the future we can discuss the problems churches are having with what “we” think children’s ministry aught to look like as opposed to the biblical concept. In the mean time, here is a few problems that need to be addressed:
1.) Separating kids and parents during worship service. Why? For two thousand years families have been worshipping together and it seems to work really well. Why do we think that we are so different?
2.) Why does everything have to be about entertainment? Personally, I wanted to scream when the little girl in the video talked about how they used to sit down and listen to a preacher and read their Bible at the old church, as if that was a bad thing. What happened to teaching our kids solemnity, reverence, or fear of the Lord?
3.) As was stated earlier, what is going to happen when the kids grow up and are now expected to go to the boring, non-relevant “big” church? Are they going to just leave or are we going to have to invite “Monty Python’s Flying Circus” to lead our church services? I am 29 years old, I am going to have deal with these kids when they become adults, and demand this kind of stuff in worship service. Maybe some of you are fortunate enough to be dead when this happens, but this scares me.
As I said before, there is much more that needs to be said, and unfortunately this also deals with Reformed and Founder Friendly churches as well. Hopefully, I will have more time later to expound my concerns later.
Deacon,
Great comment and great insight into true ministry. I'm not sure I disagree with anything save the idea that we are ignoring the elephant in the room. We understand the concerns about entertainment ministry and yet I'm not sure that was what concerned Bo or me in this context.
To consistently hear the challenge of integrity in ministry on the one hand and then to hear that those calling for such may show a lack thereof by posting on their Blog implications that are less than honest seems contradictory, and causes many other concerns and questions.
Again, let me state I do not know the practices of FBCS! But if Bo is right then a correction and apology from Tom seems fitting. If Bo is wrong then he should apologize for false statements. The statements are "When a child is baptized, the sirens sound and confetti fires out of the canon" (Tom's Post). "We don't even have a baptistery for the kids- we baptize them in the sanctuary with everyone else" (Bo's comment w spelling correction). The two are exclusive.
BR
What makes speaking at TBN so unbelievable? Is it unacceptable to speak on venues that don't hold to everything you do?
TBN is home to Oneness Pentecostals and the Word of Faith Movement, eg. Modalism and a different gospel that is more Gnostic than orthodox. Bailey Smith, while I hold his soteriology is seriously lacking in many ways, still preaches the gospel of repentance and faith in Christ alone. There is no comparison between Dr. MacArthur preaching @ a Bailey Smith conference and Ronnie Floyd @ TBN.
Ronnie Floyd is no sell-out
That's funny, I didn't say he was, did I? I just think he lacks sound discernment. It would be helpful to actually address what I said and not what I did not say, but since you brought it up, I'll elucidate.
TBN uses men like Dr. Floyd to gain legitmacy in the eyes of other Christians and Christian broadcasters the same way that FARMS uses Richard Mouw, Fuller Seminary's president to gain legitimacy for Mormonism every time Mouw vists the Tabernacle. IN constrast, Bailey Smith does not seek to gain legitimacy in the eyes of others by having men like Dr. MacArthur preach. I know this for a fact, as I know one or two of the big broadcasters' owners who refuse to give them time on their satellite. These men most recently refused T.D. Jakes because of his modalist views. T.D. Jakes is a known modalist and it is no secret that he does everything he can to be seen with the likes of Jack Graham, who cooperated with Jakes for the National Day of Prayer awhile back. Phillips, Craig, and Dean do this same thing. I'm sorry, but I take the admonition not to yoke ourselves unequally with false teachers seriously. Oneness Pentecostalism combines Pentecostalism, baptismal regeneration, and modalism into one. PCD and Jakes are all Oneness. There are plenty of other options for orthodox persons to "go worldwide" these days besides TBN. I would also point out the Baptist church is a local church first, not a "worldwide church." They should go worldwide via missions through the IMB, not TBN.
The link that Dr. Tom referenced points to an article on FBCS's site that mentions the very thing he talked about in this post from the very beginning.
I've already posted my thoughts on this, so I'll wait for someone else more eloquent to contribute something so I don't bore anyone by repeating what I've said. :)
For Jesus,
David Hewitt
...someone like Gene M Bridges, who was typing his article as I was typing mine! :)
If the link to FBC Springdale is dead, you can still view it via the Google cache.
Type the parent URL into www.google.com.
Click the "View Cached Version" option.
The cached URL is here:
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:ACGLBomPAbUJ:www.fbc-springdale.org/kidsinc/html/children_s_ministry_magazine.htm+&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1
I just tried the link in Firefox and it works.
As for it being an "idea" not realized, as Tim noted... Maybe, but I doubt it. As I read the article, I'm struck by comments that the rooms have actually been realized and not simply designed.
Read this one from another winner in another category:
Look what God has done!" That was the resounding cry of almost every contest entrant. They asked God for big dreams and then saw him faithfully provide to fulfill those dreams. Our only double-category winner is BLAST: Bible Learning and Spiritual Training at First Presbyterian Church in Visalia, California. Beth Richards, their children's director, saw God move in amazing ways. She writes, "Although this was a monumental task for us and a great leap into the unknown, we never looked back once we started! Our enthusiasm and faith were fanned by the Holy Spirit moving discreetly throughout our congregation. Our largest ticket items were donated, as was almost all the labor to transform the rooms...It seemed that each obstacle we met (usually in the form of a huge bill that was due) was removed by an even grander form of support (usually in the form of a donation). We felt God's hand in everything we set out to accomplish because when it was all finished, the overall transformation was far more than we had envisioned! Even today, when I walk through the classrooms, I sense God's presence. We learned that God is faithful and that he answers prayers. We also learned to trust his guidance."
--To me, that reads like a design that has been realized, not a design that has been proposed. The magazine talks about these as if they have been actually made. Likewise, the room in Springdale is said to have been set up at a specific time of year by specific persons. This is a design realized not a design proposed.
Here is what FBC Springdale says about its own chidren's ministry elsewhere on its own website:http://www.fbcs.net/html/mini_kids.htm
Notice it mentions the CT article, Toon Town, and Planet 45.
KIDZ Church – Grades 1-3 meet every Sunday morning in Toon Town. This dynamic, age-appropriate worship service will instill a life-changing truth in your child’s life each week. You will also receive a take-home paper with questions from the lesson that you can discuss with your child during the week.
Planet 45 – Grades 4-5 meet on Sunday morning in The Space Place which features cutting-edge video games, lights, and a giant space painting. Through drama, awesome praise and worship, cutting-edge technology, and interactive Bible lessons, God’s Word is effectively communicated to the visual generation. Planet 45 is designed to meet the unique needs of today’s 4-5th graders.
Our children’s ministry was recently named one of the top ten children’s ministries in the nation. Our facilities were voted the most innovative in America by Children’s Ministry Magazine. We have been featured in Christianity Today Magazine, Your Church Magazine, Children’s Ministry Magazine, and Time Magazine. We have also been featured in several newspaper and television reports including a nationwide appearance on ABC. We are committed to a ministry of excellence for your child.
At Kids Inc. our goal is for your child to be able to grow up and say, "I have never known anything but loving and serving Jesus."
So, it seems to me that their own website is admitting to the very thing that the FJ article noted, for the article in their magazine says, "The firehouse door raises and kids are baptized in the back of the fire truck." Further, the description for their Children's Ministry explicitly discusses Toon Town and Planet 45. If Brother Bo Higgly has a problem with the article here, then he should contact his church and ask them to update their church website, for Brother Tom is only reporting based on the information that FBC Springdale has made available themselves. Please forgive us all, Brother Higgly, for our failing powers of precognition if this information is incorrect.
Tom,
I have known like yourselves about this for sometime. I ASK ANYONE TO PROVE TO ME THAT A RIGHT VIEW OF GOD AND HIS ATTRIBUTES, CALVINISM DOES NOT MATTER FOR ONE TO BE PRESIDENT OF THE SBC ! WE ARE A DENOMINATION THAT REALLY DOES NOT BELIEVE IN ROMANS 1:16 BECAUSE IF WE DID WE WOULD NOT BE USING FLOYD AND HUNT AS OUR MODELS FOR A PICTURE OF A NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH OR PASTOR. NO WAY !
AS YOU KNOW THERE IS SO MUCH MORE OF THIS STUFF IN OUR MEGA CHURCHES. A BOOK SHOULD BE WRITTEN BECAUSE IT WILL TAKE ONE TO SHOW SOME THAT THIS JUNK GOES ON AND HAS BEEN! CASH GIVEN TO TEENAGERS,CARS GIVEN AWAY, VACATION GETAWAYS, ITALIAN SUITS AND SHOES, CHURCH CREDIT CARDS, AND MASSAGES FOR STAFF AT STAFF RETREATS ALL FOR CHURCH GROWTH AND BAPTISMS FOR THE GLORY OF MAN !
To paraphrase one of the many memorable quotes from an Arkansas politician, "it all depends on what the meaning of baptism is..."
Some have questioned whether a fire truck baptistry actually exists, suggesting that the quote from the website refers to a design concept that was not actually built and put in place. Mr. Bridges effectively addresses this point through his analysis of the website article.
Assuming that the design concept became reality and the room was actually built, others have argued that the fire truck baptistry was not really a baptistry. Instead, it was a means for showering all the children in the room with confetti.
Assuming that this is true, the best face we can place on this is that FBC Springdale has carelessly used the word "baptism." If the purpose of the fire truck is to merely shower children with confetti, then why not use the word "shower"?
Baptism is an important event in the life of a Christian. When the word baptism is used - especially in Baptist circles - the understood connotation is a new believer in Christ who is identifying himself/herself with Christ through baptism. Thus, the adjective "believer's" is an unnecessary modifier.
Assuming the fire truck was not intended to function as a baptistry, then why was it referred to as such? Putting the best face possible on this and assuming this is a case of careless use of the word "baptism," to what extent has a similar lack of care vested itself in other areas of church operation?
Brad Reynolds,
Thank you for your comments, but whether or not the comments about a fire-truck baptistery is either correct or a misreading of an article, is still missing the whole point. However, in defense of Tom, it can easily be understood that they do in fact have a fire-truck baptistery according to the FBCS website article that Tom linked.
As I said in my post what FBCS is doing is nothing more than what many churches (Reformed /Non-reformed) are doing except on steroids. And yes, this is the elephant in the corner that everyone is ignoring. The fire-truck is nothing but a footnote to a long list of problems. May I remind you that FBCS’s video that I originally saw on ABC, had a girl stating that she had to read the Bible in her old church in a not-so-positive light. What?! I know that kids say the darnedest things, but would you put that as a promotion for your church? “Come to our church, your kids won’t have to read the Bible!” Yea!
How about the comment that we “think with our feelings”? Isn’t that what we should be trying to teach our kids not to do instead of feeding their more basic nature? As I said before, there is so much to comment on and not enough time.
The welcome video for the children's ministries at FBC Springdale comments that this generation of children hears with their eyes and thinks with their feelings.
Has this not been the natural tendency of all humans since the fall was recorded in Genesis 3? Put differently, was there ever a time when it was natural for children to carefully, thoughtfully and logically analyze evidence and then come to the conclusion best supported by the evidence?
To ask these questions is to answer them. This is why children need parents and other teachers. (I use the adjective "other" here because parents should be their children's primary teachers.) Part of raising a child, or if you will, domesticating a child, is to break him/her of what is natural and then replace that natural, reflexive response with a superior, learned, yet unnatural response.
Paying attention and listening to a presentation made by someone else is difficult, but if we expect adults to be able to do this, then we have to start developing this skill when those future adults are still children. Carefully following the arguments developed by someone else in the written word is equally difficult and unnatural. But it is equally necessary if adults are to grasp the important truths handed down from one generation to the next.
Even if society at large has abandoned the task of civilizing, training and domesticating the next generation, this does not justify the church abandoning these necessary tasks. Going further and perish the thought, even if the church at large has abandoned the task of civilizing, training and domesticating the next generation, this does not justify particular local congregations or families abandoning these necessary tasks.
Two witness confirmation?
Baptist Standard reports this is a fire truck baptismal.
http://www.baptiststandard.com/2000/11_20/pages/baptisms.html
A quote from the Houston Chronicle
http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2000_3251603
Second Baptist is not the only church that is adapting amusement attractions, said Bruce Barry, president and CEO of Wacky World. His first church work came two years ago with an Arkansas congregation.
He acknowledges, though, that he was stunned when First Baptist Church of Springdale, Ark., asked him to design a "Toon Town" children's sanctuary.
But he took the challenge and created characters that yell and scream as clocks spin crazily and water towers explode with water spouts. He designed a fire truck that holds a baptistry for kids. Once a child is baptized, a bell rings and he or she is sprayed with confetti.
"It is a pretty big deal to get baptized in Springdale, Ark.," Barry said.
The Rev. Ronnie Floyd, pastor of the 12,000-member congregation, said Toon Town, geared for first- through third-graders, and a space-theme Planet 45 for fourth- and fifth-graders have led to an increase in children's attendance from more than 400 children to 500.
More than 150 children have been baptized since the opening of the new children's worship center. Floyd said the majority of children are baptized in the main sanctuary's baptistry while some prefer the firetruck christening.
Farmboy (and Gene),
in light of David's comment about boredom I tread lightly, and recognize that I may not be communicating clearly...so let me try again.
Excellent point regarding the meaning of baptism. And you may have a good-point concerning the wisdom of calling something other than believers baptism, baptism. Nevertheless, even among Baptist, baptism has more than one meaning…it is not unusal to hear someone say I was baptized by fire in reference to a learning experience. Further, as I stated, if I claim that we baptize youth with confetti upon entering our youth area (as unwise as such a statement may seem) and someone takes that to imply to others publicly that we baptize our youth with confetti, then they are less than forthright.
Now, I do not know Tom, nor have I ever been to FBCS, but if Bo is correct then I can see his frustration. When I read this post I was struck with concern about the practice of baptizing children in a fire-engine which was clearly implied, but when I read the article the context implied something different (at least to me), which immediately seemed ironic since this was posted on a Blog that encourages integrity in ministry and factual statements by one who signed a statement that encourages such, less than a week ago.
This was my concern. However, Deacon and Farmboy you are wise to caution about entertainment or cheerleading at the expense of Exposition, which is something we should all guard against.
BR
Tony
Thanks for the comment...that clears up my concerns.
BR
Listen: I don't know Bo, but in his defense it's hard to keep up with everything that happens at one church in two locations.
When we first were considering moving to NWA, we visited FBC-Springdale on a Wednesday night. It was an interesting visit because the area was ramping up for the Billy Graham Crusade that was coming through. After getting a sort of cook's tour of the campus (and it is a campus -- it's bigger today than it was then), we sat through the first of two or three weeks of initiation into the BGC evangelism team.
It sticks out in my mind mostly because the class was being held ... you guessed it: in the Toon Town building. Everyone was really very proud of what they had going on there. "the guy who designed Rainforest Cafe" was said a lot.
I have no idea why somebody would now want to deny or defend the thing. It's real; it's done. Everybody has some fleas under the fur in their church, and there's no reason for FBC-Spr to be any different.
We're not electing Dr. Floyd to the papacy. I think that the second half of Dr. Hunt's letter makes a pretty interesting point that the President of the SBC is an "expedient" leadership position and not necessarily a doctrinal or theological position. The president of the SBC doesn't have a lot of theological pull -- unless he tries to start removing people like Dr. Mohler from SBC seminaries. But that's a whole other kettle of fish, and it's not even in the arena of play right now.
Dr. Floyd has demonstrated the ability to manage large organizations effectively. I say leave the guy alone and let's not make a big deal out of the fact that his church has a lot of money and spends it on (gasp) what they believe is ministry work.
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Listen -
I don't think the Fire Truck thing should be consuming our conversation. But, to clear things up...one of the student associates at FBCS,who went to the seminary ext. with me there at the church, took me through the facilities and pointed this out to me directly.
I do not know if it is still used in this way or if it ever was used. But the articles speak for themselves. I never saw anything in action - I only took a personal tour.
I personally do not think that kids having fun in church is heresy. I think the whole baptistry issue should die - it is sidebar stuff in my opinion. But to appease everyone I will ask DR. Floyd myself about the fire truck in my blog interview with him this week.
BO - I love your pastor. I talked with him today. The fruit of the ministry is obvious regardless of what some may say. But you also must understand there are issues going on and much discussion about good ecclesiology and soteriology.
This discussion is fruitful for the church and rest assured that your pastor is not afraid of the discussion. He is forward thinking and he loves the Lord passionatly. That came through as I talked with him today on the phone. I think everyone needs to hold tight and pray - maybe God is working in a way that we don't understand.
One more thing - Spiritual Child Abuse - that is a little over the top Tony.
Tad
I'm not sure how all of this fits in with everything, but here goes. Though I'm certainly reformed, and would love to see a Calvinist elected SBC president (unlikely, but possible), what strikes me about this is the need for that man to possess two characteristics: a heart of integrity, and a heart of prayer. On a personal level, for some reason, prayer is becoming a great concern of mine, because I need much greater growth in this area. As a denomination, I feel the SBC needs to recover the gospel, and true devotion to prayer (I think Spurgeon would agree).
I go to an SBC chuch which boasts of 29,000 members (2/3 of which can't be accounted for no doubt). Every Sunday the baptistry is filled with children who "came forward" within the last 2 weeks. Along with those children, are usually at least 2 adults who are "getting their baptism on the right side of their salvation"...I can't help but wonder if some years back, these folks were small children who walked an aisle one Sunday, and baptized the next. What happened to discernment? No wonder the numbers are so inflated.
The current pastor of my church seems to think that Calvinism is the biggest threat to the SBC, but has recently instituted a Thursday night worship service for the 18-29 crowd, geared to attract that age group. Seems to me that pragmatism is the greatest threat, not only to the SBC, but to the gospel message itself.
Having served in a church for some years where the pragmatism, entertainment model, and lack of discernment surrounding the children’s ministry was much milder than what is being mentioned here, I believe strongly that “spiritual child abuse” is not an overstatement. Reading Tony’s comments in the past convince me that he is not saying this simply to be inflammatory, but rather it springs out of a heart felt concern for the children that he is shepherding.
Though I believe that the intentions of the majority are good in this area, if we truly love our children, we will do what is in their best interest for eternity, not what simply gives us “peace of mind” (I got them to pray the prayer! Now I can rest easy!), makes it “fun for them”, or what “gives us more decisions” (because children are the “easiest to get to make a decision”). That type of children’s ministry, for all its good intentions, engages in spiritual child abuse.
That our children may see the glory of God,
Jeremiah
Tad said: “The fruit of the ministry is obvious regardless of what some may say.”
All of Grace said: “Seems to me that pragmatism is the greatest threat, not only to the SBC, but to the gospel message itself.”
I’m going to side with allofgrace on this one, whether he was addressing Tad’s comments or not with these words. Not sure if Tad was actually saying that the ends justify the means, but it kind of came across that way. If so, that is a cause for great concern.
Pragmatism is one of the greatest threats to the gospel. And unfortunately, like many SBC mega-churches (which is why they are mega), FBCS seems to be enslaved to it as well (from what we can read on their website).
However, I’m not saying I expect any more than that out of the pragmatic, as the error is simply rooted in a misunderstanding of God’s sovereignty altogether. That’s why the issue of Calvinism in the SBC is so critical. It is not a hobby-horse for some of us, Calvinism concerns the true nature of the gospel itself.
SDG
Centuri0n,
I have to disagree with you a bit on the importance of the position of President of the SBC. Though it is certainly not the papacy, he has a tremendous impact on policy and these actions influence what goes on in our church. With every single President focusing on numerical growth, it makes the job of the average pastor that much more difficult to prune the bloated rolls of the local church.
The reason for that is that the "trickle down" effect to our people is that high attendance is the job and goal of the pastor. After all, that's what the President of the SBC tends to send out as the message. If we aren't baptizing large numbers, we are failing. If we aren't growing, we are failing. This is the dominant attitude of churches in our convention, and it causes tremendous pressure on the pastor to produce results.
As for me, I have no other churches from which I may steal sheep. Everybody down here is Catholic but our Baptist outpost, and even our outpost is in shambles. Now, how I am I supposed to explain to the people that instead of "growing" the Church, I'm actually pushing to "cut" over 100 from the roll?
I believe that the President of the SBC could certainly set the tone and make the job of the local pastor a lot easier if he would announce the "Million Fewer in 2007" campaign. That is, we want to do Church Discipline this year and be more honest and caring for those who are breaking covenant with us by not attending. Perhaps I am wrong, but there are few high profile pastors sounding this call, and it grieves me.
"Spiritual Child Abuse" is not an overstatement. In fact, I am a product of such abuse. I was left spiritually distitute in High School and college, but don't worry about me, I SAID THE PRAYER! Many in my family are still enslaved to the pragmatic methodologies that FBCS so clearly demonstrate. Every time I ask the question, "Don't you see a problem with this?" I am given the response, "Well, it works." Well, so does Islam - its the fastest growing religion in the world.
The only difference in FBCS and most SBC churches, as I said before, is that FBCS does it on steriods. The SBC has become neo-Methodist with less class and a lot more flare.
W