Ergun Caner on "Predestined Not to Be a Hyper-Calvinist"
Dr. Ergun Caner has published an article by this title in the latest National Liberty Journal. I hesitate even calling attention to it because I know that what he says will provoke many who regularly read this blog. Provocation is so easy to come by these days that I hate to be another carrier. But, obviously, my hesitations were not enough to hold me back. They were overcome by other motivations.
First, the tone of this article is so much better than the comments that Dr. Caner left on my blog a few months ago, I am tempted to be encouraged that the prospect of a reasonable debate on the issues over which we disagree is actually possible. I realize that last sentence is a study in caution, but I am somewhat encouraged. Dr. Caner quotes a Director of Missions who fears that "the Reformed movement will not go away" but is "slowly taking over some major churches" (I guess this is in contrast to the "minor churches" that this DOM thinks we *should* be pastoring). Dr. Caner responds:
A second reason that I have chosen to address this article despite my hesitations has to do with my genuine desire to understand what Dr. Caner and those who follow his line of reasoning actually hear when they listen to the doctrines of grace articulated. Often, after reading the descriptions of Calvinism by its critics I find myself recoiling in horror with the thought that such beliefs ought to be cast back into hell from which they originated. I hate what they describe as much as they do. But what they describe is not historic, evangelical Calvinism. It is not the Calvinism of the 293 delegates who met in Augusta, Georgia in 1845 to form the Southern Baptist Convention. It is not the Calvinism of Spurgeon, Edwards, Carey, Judson, Boyce, Mell or Dagg. And it is certainly not the Calvinism of Founders Ministries.
So a question lingers on in my mind, "Where do such descriptions come from?" Is there something that those of us who are unapologetically reformed in our understanding of the Bible's teachings on salvation are doing to misrepresent our views? In our advocacy of the truth are we actually detracting from it in the way that we communicate it? I know that the truth is offensive and Jesus spoke plainly about it dividing even close relations. Paul said that the preaching of the cross is a scandal and an offense to many. Those are simple facts that all who are loyal to Christ must acknowledge and prepare to live with. But are we in the Reformed camp unwittingly giving unnecessary offense by our attitudes and actions when we uphold our convictions? No doubt that is true of some on many occasions and perhaps of many on some occasions. That still does not justify the misrepresentations because the 9th commandment doesn't have an exception clause attached to it.
Here is an initial attempt at understanding all of this. I think Dr. Caner is alarmed by the worst that he has seen in Calvinism and Calvinists. Further, I believe that he is fully convinced by his reading of Scripture that those who are reformed are simply wrong about moral inability, unconditional election, definite atonement and effectual calling. What I am not certain about is this: does he think that the strident, repulsive image of Calvinism that some Fundamentalists construct is inherent to the actual doctrinal convictions of reformed theology or is it an aberration of it? At this point I genuinely don't know the answer to that question, though the caricatures are so clear to me that the answer is obvious.
A third reason I call attention to this article is because confuses categories and definitions in ways that I find terribly unhelpful to honest diaologue. For example, Caner says this:
Additionally, Dr. Caner's 5-fold definition of what he calls "neo-Calvinism" (hyper-Calvinism) is unhelpful.
1. "Double Predesitination." Calvin believed this. Are we to label him a hyper-Calvinist? John Bunyan believed this. Is he a "neo-Calvinist?"
2. "Not all babies who die go to heaven. They do not say outright that 'non-elect babies who die go to hell.' They simply say that they leave such issues to the sovereignty of God. This raises the issue of the very nature of God, doesn’t it?" Yes it does raise that issue, which is exactly the point, from my perspective. God is "too wise to be mistaken, too good to be unkind." The cross proves this beyond all doubt. For the record, I have never heard anyone argue that any baby that died in infancy went to hell. What I and others have said is that God has not told us clearly in His Word how all that works. We bow in humility and leave what He has not chosen to reveal in His all-wise, all-loving hands. This, it seems to me, is far better than trying to equate theologically the nature of a child with the nature of a dog (check the 6th bullet point)--neither of which are accountable to God for sin.
3. "God’s "love for mankind" must be redefined." Not "redefined," but simply defined. There is a reason D.A. Carson named his book, The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God. Passages that speak of God hating sinners were not surreptitiously edited into the Bible by "neo-Calvinists." We must deal with those texts along side the ones that speak of God's universal love and grace.
4. "Invitations are an insult to the sovereignty of God. Disturbing as this may sound, some ministers of this stripe have stopped giving invitations in their services." Here Dr. Caner equates "altar call" with "invitation." The Gospel cannot be preached without an invitation because the call to come to Christ is inherent in the message. The fact that some Calvinists do not want to use the altar call system, what we might call "neo-invitationalism," should not be misconstrued to suggest that they are against inviting people to Christ. In addition, Rick Warren does not use an "invitation" and teaches against it. Should he also be labeled a hyper-Calvinist?
5. "Calvinism is the only Gospel." Granted, Spurgeon did say that Calvinism is the Gospel. But anyone who has read his sermons or books knows that by that he did not mean that simply articulating the 5 points is proclaiming the Gospel. I think Dr. Caner has a point here. When Calvinists quote Spurgeon on this it tends to confuse as much as clarify. As my own concerns over the loss of the Gospel in our churches has grown in recent years I have become more careful not to speak like this, and here is the reason why. I know of Calvinists who preach careful doctrine but who do not preach Christ so well. And the Gospel is all about Jesus Christ, who He is, what He has done and why that matters.
Dr. Caner appeals uncritically to the Anabaptists as his spiritual forbears in distinction to the magisterial reformers. I will let that historical debate slide for the moment. But I found much with which to agree in this paragraph:
Near the beginning of the article Dr. Caner makes these statements:
Final note: My treatment of this article is not an invitation to take shots at Dr. Caner in the comments. Engage his arguments, raise questions, objections or agreements, offer clarifications or support, but do not attack his person.
First, the tone of this article is so much better than the comments that Dr. Caner left on my blog a few months ago, I am tempted to be encouraged that the prospect of a reasonable debate on the issues over which we disagree is actually possible. I realize that last sentence is a study in caution, but I am somewhat encouraged. Dr. Caner quotes a Director of Missions who fears that "the Reformed movement will not go away" but is "slowly taking over some major churches" (I guess this is in contrast to the "minor churches" that this DOM thinks we *should* be pastoring). Dr. Caner responds:
Is his concern justified? Is Calvinism slowly overtaking Baptist churches?Though those who have kept up with this blog or Caner's ministry might think this disclaimer to be unnecessary, it is encouraging to see him concerned with fairness. In fact, he goes on to make this appropriate admission:
To be fair, I must admit I have been vocal on this issue.
Very vocal.
I could hardly be viewed as an "unbiased" source on the issue. I have preached it in the Thomas Road Baptist Church pulpit, and have stated emphatically in my classes.
Also for the sake of fairness, I must add that one cannot solely blame our Reformed brothers, either. Baptists are notorious for "fighting and fussing" over such issues as the color of the carpet and the location of the water fountains. This is not the first scuffle into which we have walked and it certainly will not be the last.And this:
Thirty years ago, however, we could not blame all Pentecostals for the discord in our churches, and neither can we blame every Calvinist for the growing discord today. Those who instigated the fights that ultimately led to splits did not represent every Pentecostal. Neither do the most strident of the Reformed-leaning Baptists represent all Calvinists today.I welcome the tone that these admissions can set in discussing the issues of Reformed theology. And I would likewise admit that not every Fundamentalist is guilty of misrepresenting the doctrines of grace or spewing forth the kind of venom and deception that characterized the now defunct baptistfire website. Many of our Fundamentalist brethren are just as interested in accurately representing those with whom they disagree as most Reformed Baptists are.
A second reason that I have chosen to address this article despite my hesitations has to do with my genuine desire to understand what Dr. Caner and those who follow his line of reasoning actually hear when they listen to the doctrines of grace articulated. Often, after reading the descriptions of Calvinism by its critics I find myself recoiling in horror with the thought that such beliefs ought to be cast back into hell from which they originated. I hate what they describe as much as they do. But what they describe is not historic, evangelical Calvinism. It is not the Calvinism of the 293 delegates who met in Augusta, Georgia in 1845 to form the Southern Baptist Convention. It is not the Calvinism of Spurgeon, Edwards, Carey, Judson, Boyce, Mell or Dagg. And it is certainly not the Calvinism of Founders Ministries.
So a question lingers on in my mind, "Where do such descriptions come from?" Is there something that those of us who are unapologetically reformed in our understanding of the Bible's teachings on salvation are doing to misrepresent our views? In our advocacy of the truth are we actually detracting from it in the way that we communicate it? I know that the truth is offensive and Jesus spoke plainly about it dividing even close relations. Paul said that the preaching of the cross is a scandal and an offense to many. Those are simple facts that all who are loyal to Christ must acknowledge and prepare to live with. But are we in the Reformed camp unwittingly giving unnecessary offense by our attitudes and actions when we uphold our convictions? No doubt that is true of some on many occasions and perhaps of many on some occasions. That still does not justify the misrepresentations because the 9th commandment doesn't have an exception clause attached to it.
Here is an initial attempt at understanding all of this. I think Dr. Caner is alarmed by the worst that he has seen in Calvinism and Calvinists. Further, I believe that he is fully convinced by his reading of Scripture that those who are reformed are simply wrong about moral inability, unconditional election, definite atonement and effectual calling. What I am not certain about is this: does he think that the strident, repulsive image of Calvinism that some Fundamentalists construct is inherent to the actual doctrinal convictions of reformed theology or is it an aberration of it? At this point I genuinely don't know the answer to that question, though the caricatures are so clear to me that the answer is obvious.
A third reason I call attention to this article is because confuses categories and definitions in ways that I find terribly unhelpful to honest diaologue. For example, Caner says this:
The real problem we face is a new form of Hyper Calvinism, that I call "Neo-Calvinism." Neo-Calvinists are not just "hyper;" they are obsessed.He goes on to make this point of "clarification:"
So I will not be misunderstood, let me define the term. A Neo-Calvinist is a Hyper Calvinist with a twist. He cannot discuss anything without referencing Calvinism. For the "Neo-Calvinist," you are either Reformed, or you are teaching heresy. It is the prism through which every doctrine is filtered.First, it is if Calvinism is being judged along a continuum with "hyper" to the right and "neo" to the far right--like someone who is "really, really, serious about his Calvinism." Of course, his use of "neo" notwithstanding, this is historically inaccurate. Hyper-Calvinism has a history. It can be defined. It is not Calvinism on steroids. As Spurgeon said, speaking of Calvinists, it is not that we believe any less than those who are hyper, we believe more. We believe in duty-faith and repentance. We believe in the absolute responsibility of unbelievers to trust Christ and be saved. When "hyper-Calvinism" is thrown around without distinguishing it from evangelical Calvinism, understanding is not advanced, confusion is.
Additionally, Dr. Caner's 5-fold definition of what he calls "neo-Calvinism" (hyper-Calvinism) is unhelpful.
1. "Double Predesitination." Calvin believed this. Are we to label him a hyper-Calvinist? John Bunyan believed this. Is he a "neo-Calvinist?"
2. "Not all babies who die go to heaven. They do not say outright that 'non-elect babies who die go to hell.' They simply say that they leave such issues to the sovereignty of God. This raises the issue of the very nature of God, doesn’t it?" Yes it does raise that issue, which is exactly the point, from my perspective. God is "too wise to be mistaken, too good to be unkind." The cross proves this beyond all doubt. For the record, I have never heard anyone argue that any baby that died in infancy went to hell. What I and others have said is that God has not told us clearly in His Word how all that works. We bow in humility and leave what He has not chosen to reveal in His all-wise, all-loving hands. This, it seems to me, is far better than trying to equate theologically the nature of a child with the nature of a dog (check the 6th bullet point)--neither of which are accountable to God for sin.
3. "God’s "love for mankind" must be redefined." Not "redefined," but simply defined. There is a reason D.A. Carson named his book, The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God. Passages that speak of God hating sinners were not surreptitiously edited into the Bible by "neo-Calvinists." We must deal with those texts along side the ones that speak of God's universal love and grace.
4. "Invitations are an insult to the sovereignty of God. Disturbing as this may sound, some ministers of this stripe have stopped giving invitations in their services." Here Dr. Caner equates "altar call" with "invitation." The Gospel cannot be preached without an invitation because the call to come to Christ is inherent in the message. The fact that some Calvinists do not want to use the altar call system, what we might call "neo-invitationalism," should not be misconstrued to suggest that they are against inviting people to Christ. In addition, Rick Warren does not use an "invitation" and teaches against it. Should he also be labeled a hyper-Calvinist?
5. "Calvinism is the only Gospel." Granted, Spurgeon did say that Calvinism is the Gospel. But anyone who has read his sermons or books knows that by that he did not mean that simply articulating the 5 points is proclaiming the Gospel. I think Dr. Caner has a point here. When Calvinists quote Spurgeon on this it tends to confuse as much as clarify. As my own concerns over the loss of the Gospel in our churches has grown in recent years I have become more careful not to speak like this, and here is the reason why. I know of Calvinists who preach careful doctrine but who do not preach Christ so well. And the Gospel is all about Jesus Christ, who He is, what He has done and why that matters.
Dr. Caner appeals uncritically to the Anabaptists as his spiritual forbears in distinction to the magisterial reformers. I will let that historical debate slide for the moment. But I found much with which to agree in this paragraph:
In our history, Free Church believers have never been adherents to one particular system or philosophy. We certainly have not been locked to a scholastic movement that was formed by men. We are Biblicists. We believe the Bible is inerrant, not because a particular creed forces us to do so, but because we see Scripture as plain on that issue. We are adamant that Jesus Christ — virgin-born, living a sinless life, crucified, buried, physically resurrected and soon returning — is the only Savior because the Bible states it, regardless of the whims and wishes of men.Of course, the existence of both the Particular Baptists (Calvinists) and General Baptists (Arminian) betrays his first sentence, but his main point is well-taken. It is precisely because we are a people of the book that we should be willing to look honestly and rigorously at what that book says. And wherever and however we disagree on other points, we must all agree on the exclusivity of Jesus Christ as the Savior of sinners.
Near the beginning of the article Dr. Caner makes these statements:
I am not a Hyper Calvinist. I am not an Arminian.Though I am under no delusions that we mean the same things by these terms, I can also affirm those statements. I am not a hyper-Calvinist. I am not an Arminian. I am a Baptist, a historic Southern Baptist, which means I am committed to the reformed, Calvinistic understanding of salvation.
I am a Baptist, ....
Final note: My treatment of this article is not an invitation to take shots at Dr. Caner in the comments. Engage his arguments, raise questions, objections or agreements, offer clarifications or support, but do not attack his person.

169 Comments:
You know, if you have to tack an invitation on at the end of your sermon, then you probably haven't done your job.
That's all I'll say because Gene will say what I'm thinking anyway.
I honestly do believe that Dr. Caner, doesn't understand what we believe. I believe this because of the following statement:
"So, let it be known: I believe Jesus Christ died to save mankind and offers salvation to every living soul. I believe in the "whosoever will." I believe that His love and salvation are extended to every person who will repent of sin and trust in Him."
As one who subscribes to all of the five points of calvinism, I can honestly say that I embrace that statement without any reservation or qualification. And all of the Calvininists that I know believe this.
He made this statement in order to, "challenge the assumptions of the new breed" Does he really know what those assmptions are?
Tom:
This just maybe good news. Aaron is right, he really doesn't know what he is talking about. And I think the fact that he is toning down and righting down points reasonbly clearly means that he is starting to know what he doesn't know.
Neo and hyper are not the same. Hyper isn't more "Calvinistic" just as Spurgeon said, but far less. Where are these hyper calvinsts in neo clothing. Many of the splits that he may point out would not hold up to the pastor didn't support missions or evangelism the big to do in So Alabama a few years ago. The new Calvinistic church is more missional than the surviving old church.
If he and Amir will be as gracious on the podium as Ergun is acting on paper there is real hope that the demonization from this corner must end. Am I being a little too pollyana?
Oh, Jeremy I thoroughly agree. If your sermon has not included an passionate call for sinners to repent and seek Christ it doesn't honor God to stand at the front of the church during Just As I Am to prospective members who will be voted in before anyone knows who or what they are.
I have always been amazed that so many of our brothers are so attached to a practice that is neither directly Biblical nor has it proven to be very effective in the big scheme of things. This frequently is the first thing that critics bring up (the lack of an altar call invitation).
Greg Bailey
(Powhatan VA)
Dr. Tom, you said:
Final note: My treatment of this article is not an invitation to take shots at Dr. Caner in the comments. Engage his arguments, raise questions, objections or agreements, offer clarifications or support, but do not attack his person.
Again, your gracious spirit is evident by your adding this in at the end of your post. May we all acquire it!
Second, Aaron quoted Dr. Caner as saying:
So, let it be known: I believe Jesus Christ died to save mankind and offers salvation to every living soul. I believe in the "whosoever will." I believe that His love and salvation are extended to every person who will repent of sin and trust in Him.
I too agree with this statement, at least the words of it. I suspect, however, that Caner is using different meanings of the terms "died to save mankind" than I or we would use. Indeed, Christ died to save people from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation (see Revelation 5:9), rather than dying to ransom and save every person in every tribe, tongue, people, and nation.
Aside from that difference in definitions, I would agree with Dr. Caner's statement. God's love and salvation are indeed extended to every person who will repent of sin and trust in Jesus, and I am eternally grateful for that fact!
May God be Praised!
David Hewitt
“Is there something that those of us who are unapologetically reformed in our understanding of the Bible's teachings on salvation are doing to misrepresent our views?”
I think that is the right question! Let me see if I can improve upon it by asking it in the negative:
Is there something that those of us who are unapologetically reformed in our understanding of the Bible's teachings on salvation are not doing that would preclude the misrepresentation of our views??
How about launching a Founders-led campaign against the heresy of hypercalvinism? That would cut the feet out from under those who misrepresent Calvinism. Now I realize that this seems pointless in one sense, because there are no hypercalvinists in the SBC (and very few anywhere it seems!) On the other hand, it would serve the people of God very well because they would not be susceptible to the anticalvinist crusaders. Those preachers who seek to “poison the well” regarding Calvinism in their congregation would not be successful if even a few SBC’ers could identify hypercalvinism. When they try to “immunize” a congregation against doctrines that historic Southern Baptists have believed, someone will call them them on the carpet and hold them accountable.
If the average SBC’er could identify hypercalvinist distinctives, then these anti-Calvinism crusaders would be SILENCED. Indeed, they would be forced to articulate the doctrines of grace ACCURATELY. And isn't that what we are asking for? Accuracy and truthfulness!
Tom, have you or anyone else given consideration to this? It seems that the inflammatory rhetoric has reached a fever pitch, and it could be silenced if not for such widespread ignorance of hypercalvinism. It seems to me that the vast majority of the strawmen are built upon the EASILY DISPROVED assertion that 5-point Calvinism = hypercalvinism.
P.S. All you guys who love expository preaching: please do not make faces at your monitors because I suggested the preaching of a topical sermon. The doctrines of hypercalvinism lend themselves to an ideal example to contrast with true Biblical doctrines of salvation.
I heard John MacArthur say at a conference "You know, it's okay to preach topically... once a year... if you ask for forgiveness."
:)
All Bible believing Christians are perpetual optimists because of our faith in the absolute sovereignity of God...
but all Bible believing Christians are also aware of the many foxes and wolves in disguise that can scatter and destroy the sheep.
We must always beware of those who use the same scriptural language that we use, but who define the biblical and theological terms in an entirely different way.
Andrew said:
How about launching a Founders-led campaign against the heresy of hypercalvinism?
Sounds like a great idea to me! :) Sadly, I have no pulpit to preach from at the moment; God has not granted me a church to shepherd at this time.
However, I did write a post on this issue a while back, and linked to another one from my blog. Both I think can be very helpful!
SDG,
David Hewitt
Caner said:
"So, let it be known: I believe Jesus Christ died to save mankind and offers salvation to every living soul."
Me:
Caner's error here is not in his belief that Christ died to save mankind (moderate Calvinists affirm this, but not high and hyper-Calvinists), but in thinking that he died with an EQUAL intent to save all mankind. Furthermore, he errs in thinking that Christ offers salvation to every living soul. Christ's salvation is offerable to every living soul (hence the great commission), but it is not actually offered. There are some who do not even hear the external call.
Caner also said:
I believe in the "whosoever will."
Me:
His error is in assuming that the will of man is the ultimate efficacious cause of salvation, rather than the efficacious will of God. None of the "whosoevers" would ever "will" to believe if it were not for the Holy Spirit working in efficacious grace to change a sinners affections/heart. The general call of the gospel is indescriminate (to both elect and non-elect) and well-meant, but the ultimate cause for why anyone wills to believe is ultimately grounded in God's good pleasure/decretal purpose.
Caner said:
"I believe that His love and salvation are extended to every person who will repent of sin and trust in Him."
Me:
Actually, this is poor wording that sounds hyper-Calvinistic. It's the hyper-Calvinist who thinks that God's love extends to every person who will repent of sin and trust in Him (i.e. the elect alone). It would be better to say, as moderate/classical Calvinism says, that God loves every single human being and wills their salvation, but not equally. There is such a thing as distinguishing grace as taught in the bible. Calvinism does not deny the universal love of God, but they teach that God ESPECIALLY loves his elect.
p.s. For those interested in reading about issues touching high and hyper-Calvinism, I have written extensively about it on my blog. Caner could never accuse me of being a hyper-Calvinist, or of not addressing it's errors EXTENSIVELY :-)
Let me clarify further:
Caner said:
"I believe that His love and salvation are extended to every person who will repent of sin and trust in Him."
I would put it this way:
I believe that His love extends to every single human being, and that His salvation is sincerely extended to every person who hears the external gospel call, whether elect or non-elect. God does not merely love the believing, but also the unbelieving.
For a high Calvinist spin on Caner's words, see David Hewitt's comments here:
"God's love and salvation are indeed extended to every person who will repent of sin and trust in Jesus (Tony: he means the elect here), and I am (Tony: he means as an elect person) eternally grateful for that fact!"
Wow, I've never had anyone call me a "high Calvinist" before. :) Obviously, ynottony is distinguishing between high and hyper; I will of course affirm that God loves everyone, though I'd put that to common grace.
I don't remember having myself quoted and parsed before -- that was kinda neat! I'm truly honored (and I mean that).
SDG,
David Hewitt
I am very familiar with the ideas that Dr. Caner continues to make. I have heard some form of these over and over during the last several years of my life. I have often raised a question that some of you fellow bloggers can assist me with. Where has this false understanding of historic reformed theology come from?
In my opinion there seems to be several generations of pastors and scholars who think they know for certain what this biblical system is. Many of them will go on and on about what reformed theology really is and it seems obvious to me that the information they recite has no foundation yet it is impossible to get many of them to re-think what they believe to be true.
They have a hard time overcoming their incorrect presuppositions. Also, I see a flawed hermeneutics that they likewise will not take a closer look at.
I maybewrong here in my conclusion but I think the Seminaries in the past did a great harm to many of the pastors on the basic level of exposition.
As for Caner and others I believe they need to drop what they believe to be known as facts and go back to some history books and begin to take a closer look at what their presuppositions are and test to see if this are true and fit into a more well defined system. Afterall is not systematic theology at least an attempt of thinking in a logical manner.
So, why are so many people borederline arrogant in what they think they know for a fact. I will say again, historic evangelical calvinism, I believe, takes into account the entire counsel of God.
Hi David,
Yes, I distinguish between high and Hyper-Calvinism, just as Dr. Curt Daniel does in his lectures on The History and Theology of Calvinism. One is high in their Calvinism if they at least maintain a strictly particular view on the design of Christ's death. High Calvinism is more than that, but not less than that. Being called a "high" Calvinist does not make one wrong theologically. It's just an accurate historical label used to guage where one is at ideologically.
I did not call you a hyper-Calvinist because I knew you would affirm common grace and the universal love of God, such as in these comments:
"I will of course affirm that God loves everyone, though I'd put that to common grace."
I concur with the above words.
Tom wrote:
"Invitations are an insult to the sovereignty of God. Disturbing as this may sound, some ministers of this stripe have stopped giving invitations in their services." Here Dr. Caner equates "altar call" with "invitation."
This is particular beating, among all the beatings that come with the misrepresentation of what Calvinism actually is. I give the gospel every single sermon, knowing that a non-believer is likely there (perhaps even on the rolls) and because it's encouraging to believers. I implore them in response to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ that they might be saved. I tell them that I'd be willing to talk with them some time at length about what it means to have a relationship with God by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yet, I'm still accused of not caring about the lost because I didn't give an invitation (i.e., I didn't have people come to the front of the building after the sermon).
Conversely, I've seen far too many Baptist services where the gospel was not articulated, but STILL an invitation was given ... to come to the front to receive Jesus. This is with no context of why to receive Jesus or what that even means, etc.
The idea that evangelism has not taken place merely because an altar call has not transpired just makes me mad any more.
I don't call people to the front. I call people to Christ.
Thanks Tom for your rational treatment in this blog. I'm in the "Old Army Fight" mode after seeing my theology once again libeled and defamed, thereby defaming my character.
ynottony:
I suspected as much, and thank you much for the clarification. I just haven't heard the term used to describe me before, kind of a novel thing I guess. :)
I'm a rather unusual one then, if I have my understandings right, since I am more the Infralapsarian stripe as well. Of course, I might just be askew on my historical understandings. :)
In any case, good to make your online acquaintance.
SDG,
David Hewitt
gunny said:
Conversely, I've seen far too many Baptist services where the gospel was not articulated, but STILL an invitation was given ... to come to the front to receive Jesus. This is with no context of why to receive Jesus or what that even means, etc.
WELL STATED, Gunny! I always knew there was something amiss when such an altar call was made, just appearing tacked on to the end of a message or even a testimony time. To what are the people supposed to respond? Indeed, such things are confusing and misleading, though I'd never put my finger on why.
Thank you for posting that!
SDG,
David Hewitt
Joshua asks:
"Where has this false understanding of historic reformed theology come from?"
Me:
I suspect that many of them are not distinguishing between the actual position of Calvinists and what they think Calvinism logically entails. It is quite common to say that P is Q, when one really means to say P entails Q.
Have you ever seen Calvinists describing Armininians as Pelagians? Or as Open View Theists? The reason why this is done is because some Calvinists think Arminianism LOGICALLY ENTAILS those positions. So, rather than being careful to say P implies or logically entails Q, they say P is Q. It's an unfair description. One can use reductio ad absurdum arguments effectively, but one needs to avoid committing straw man fallacies in the process.
This is just a small factor for why so much confusion abounds.
The bottom line is this: Sin has touched man's ability to reason properly. Theologians call this the noetic effects of sin, as you know. The noetic effects of sin become particularly excited when theological truths come into play, especially when gospel truths are at stake. Accuracy of speech gets lost during the emotive polemical exchanges, and each side can overreact in recoiling from perceived errors.
Also, people are just lazy. They are not interested in doing the necessary hard work to really get understanding.
Hi David,
Nice to meet you as well. You said:
"I'm a rather unusual one then, if I have my understandings right, since I am more the Infralapsarian stripe as well."
Well, high Calvinists can fall in different places in the lapsarian scale, whether infra or supra. So, there are higher high Calvinists and lower high Calvinist ;-) Owen and Turretin are lower high Calvinists (they were both infralapsarians). A higher high Calvinst would be a supralapsarian Calvinist who has not rejected common grace, the well-meant offer or duty-faith. If they went higher and reject these three things, then they would be hyper.
High Calvinism is not necessarily associated with supralapsarianism. Some supras are high and some supras are hyper. Rather than using a lapsarian schema to differentiate, one can use the death of Christ as a guage.
Low Calvinists might say that Christ died to save all without making careful qualifications.
Moderate Calvinism would maintain that Christ died to save all, but to especially save the elect.
High Calvinism would say that Christ died to save only the elect, but the non-elect also get general benefits such as free offers and common grace as a result of Christ's satisfaction.
Hyper-Calvinism would say that Christ died to save only the elect, and God only hates the non-elect. So called "common grace" is no grace at all. The common bounties of providence amount to ill-given (or ill-meant) good gifts.
ynottony:
An excellent summary! Thanks again for the information!
I may ask other questions of you at some point; you are proving to be a wealth of information. :)
SDG,
David Hewitt
Dr. Tom -- sorry for hijacking the thread -- I'm done now, I promise! :)
DH
Andrew:
You asked, "How about launching a Founders-led campaign against the heresy of hypercalvinism?"
Actually, we did that 10 years ago. Check out issue 24 of the Founders Journal. Pay particular attention to the open letter that announced the give away of 1500 copies of Iain Murray's Spurgeon vs. Hyper-Calvinism. All told, we gave away 2000 copies. Interestingly, some very well-known Southern Baptist Calvinists got upset with us for doing this.
Founders Ministries has been on record from the outset of our existence over 20 years ago that we are adamently opposed to hyper-Calvinism. Unfortunately, this has not stopped some from making that accusation against us, anyway.
Gunny:
I am on the same page with you. Regarding the "Old Army fight mode"..."Rest!"
The discussion of hyper-calvinism brought to mind Andrew Fuller's name for hyper-calvinists. He called them pseudo-calvinists, for they were not calvinists at all.
God Bless
Where exactly is this church that I keep reading about that has split over Calvinism? I know it comes from the former BaptistFire website, but where did they come up with the story?I tried googling it and nothing else came up. And since it is "another" does that not imply there are others?
Brother Tom,
To be fair; I believe that you have mis-quoted the title of his article. His article was entitled Predestined not to be a Hyper Calvinist.
To be fair to the author, I believe his tirade was more pointed to the Hyper part than the Calvinist Part.
Just my opinion.
Caner- "I honestly believe that there is no question in Christendom that the church should walk away from, run away from, or hide away from; and I think there are times that we need to confront issues that are frontline issues [i.e. Calvinism]."
Caner then continued to indicate that the number one issue affecting churches today is "Calvinism."
If Caner truly believes this, then we will see if his passion will translate proportionally to a lengthy debate in October.
Tom, thanks for clarifying terms in this post. As Sproul says, "Hyper-Calvinism is Anti-Calvinism."
As a Southern Baptist layman I read this post and am reminded once again that the men who are "called" to positions of leadership have found it acceptable to immerse themselves in more fruitless controversy about the Word of God.
Nearly every blog of any significance within the Baptist realm has ongoing banter regarding Calvanism and its various forms.
I can see that Calvinism is the up and coming "separator" within the ranks of the SBC. No, No, No - Lets not pursue the things that bring us together as brothers and sisters in Christ, lets continue in man-made "intellectual" debates that don't forward the cause of Christ, but keep us distracted and missing the mark.
I've come to believe that the real problem with the SBC, is that most of its Preacher/Pastors are not truly called by God. They are merely seminary graduates who believe that their Baptist seminary diploma quailifies them to preach the Gospel and publically grind up the reputation and unity of the Baptist people through continuous, fruitless arguments and controversies.
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Greetings brethren:
As always Tom, a very stimulating post. I commend you for yet again getting us talking about the "real issues" of our day.
I pastor in one of the unique areas of our country (Eastern KY, Appalachia) where TRUE HYPER-CALVINISM still exists, and I battle it daily. It is NOT however, among Southern Baptist brethren, but rather in rural Appalachian "Holler-churches" known as either "Old Regulars" or "Enterprise Baptist Churches". They have little to no influence, except over small handfuls of faithful elderly folks and their children, and they are dying out by and large because of their refusal to evangelize or cooperate with other churches. One particular group in my area travels each Sunday to one of four different "church buildings", all of which USED to be independent churches, but which now do not have crowds even big enough to open the doors. Their leaders are EXTREMELY anti-intellectual, uneducated, and think that "liberal" Southern Baptists like me (tongue in cheek...Im a 1689, Abstract, and 2000 BFM supporter) are the scourge of the earth.
I recently was asked to speak at a funeral for a man whose son is a member of my church. I had visited him in the hospital before death, and the family honored me by asking me to read scripture, share the obituary, and pray at the beginning of the service. I gladly obliged. The lions-share of the service though, including the "preaching" was done by one of these "hardshell" preachers. On the night before the funeral, while calling on the family and viewing the deceased, I was verbally accosted by this preacher who wanted to set me straight for having a visitation and outreach program and for supporting missions. He mocked me and spoke in very perjorative terms about SBC missions life.
The next day during the "sermon" (he preached for 45 minutes on Romans 8:28-30), instead of preaching Christ and offering hope, he decided to set straight the crowd (and presumably me) by giving the TRUE ordo salutis of salvation. He actually stated (pay close attention sports fans...) that "faith in the heart of the elect precedes either the preaching or the hearing of the gospel!" I know this because I wrote it down. It shocked me that much. To be fair, he was at least logically consistent with his hardshell beliefs. Because he believes faith is supernaturally just "there" in the heart of the elect at birth, he sees no reason for the preaching of the gospel to the lost.
This is true hyper-calvinism. I deal with it every day in Eastern KY. I abhor it. I also resent the fact that Ergun and Emir (and others) continually mischaracterize my beliefs by using the term "hyper-calvinist." They are being intellectually dishonest when they do so, and I believe that they know this. They are steadily achieving their goal however, which is (through slander) to create a ripple of fear throughout the ranks of mis-informed SB preachers so that they will cringe at the very sound of words like "sovereign grace," "Calvinist," or "election."
What they continue to do is dishonest and unethical, and it should be called such. Hyper-calvinism still exists, but not among Southern Baptists. They know this. They and others in their ranks should be honest about it.
I am open to fair and honest debate about the doctrines of Grace. I am even willing to call a brother one who does not fully agree with me on these doctrines. What is unacceptable however, is attempting to create a new vernacular and completely redefine well established theological terminology in order to curry favor with the misinformed masses.
I love this site, and pray for the Founders movement often.
Dust,
It's one thing to criticize division for the sake of division. I agree that such efforts are foolish. However, an understanding of grace and how it works isn't a fringe issue, although it is no reason to break fellowship. I think a lot of reformed people would be happy if they were simply given a seat at the discussion table without having to defend themselves all the time.
What is another thing entirely is the way your post seems to call into question the calling of anyone who is discussing the issue. Your jest at the idea of "calling" in paragraph one and the last paragraph seems to be your way of drawing a question mark over the character and calling of the pastors posting here. I do not think you meant to be so bold without knowledge. Would you care to rephrase?
Drew,
I see where these "discussions" of Calvinism (which are happening throughtout the SBC) are taking us - to a deeper and further divide among the ranks of Southern Baptist Preacher/Pastors and congregations. You probably know and observe that it is already beyond mere "discussion". Its affecting the lives of real people and real congregations.
Do we really need, as Southern Baptists, another issue that divides us. Must we even argue and debate about God's grace to the extent that another fissure is created. Does the drive for an intellectual understanding of God's grace justify destroying unity within the church. Can you not see Satan at work?
I do not call into question the "calling" of any specific Pastor discussing Calvinism on this post, but share this observation:
The Southern Baptist people are very weary of the so-called leaders of the SBC who thrive on controversy and intellectual debates that drive deep the wedge of disunity. This "discussion" of Calvinism will bear no good fruit.
Do we really need, as Southern Baptists, another issue that divides us. Must we even argue and debate about God's grace to the extent that another fissure is created. Does the drive for an intellectual understanding of God's grace justify destroying unity within the church. Can you not see Satan at work?
Not all debate and division is spoken of poorly in Scripture. I think you're overcharacterizing the nature of the debate. If this is, in point of fact, the biblical worldview, should it not be discussed and taught. The material principle of the Reformation is at stake. It's the difference between functional Unitarianism and Trinitarianism.
There is nothing wrong with division per se. The Bible speaks about division in the church in positive and negative light.
1 Cor. 11:18-19, "For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part, I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, in order that those who are approved may have become evident among you."
1 Cor. 1:10, "Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree, and there be no divisions among you, but you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment."
1 Cor. 11:19 uses the Greek word "haireses" for "factions". We get the English word heresy from this Greek word. A heresy is a false teaching, something that deviates from orthodoxy. If we see that the Scriptures declare something clearly (orthodoxy), and if someone teaches contrary to that clear teaching, then he or she is teaching heresy.
The Scriptures teach that there is a place for division and that is when opposing teachings that are contrary to sound doctrine. But division can only occur when the truth is known and those who abide with the truth should correct those who do not.
The question that needs to be asked is "How will this debate be handled?" If folks leave churches but the churches are preaching truth, then what's the problem exactly? Afraid of a denominational rift? Isn't this ironic after the recovery of inerrancy? Why is inerrancy worth dividing over and not the material principle of the Reformation?
As to Dr. Caner's article, I've written on it here: http://triablogue.blogspot.com/
2006/06/caner-on-calvinism.html
See also www.strangebaptistfire.com
My only comment is "for such a one I was once also," or words to that effect. The sad truth about such views is that they are what come from a historically-limited, biblically-slanted kind of "theology".
Is there any word on the debate this fall? Have any of the principles had any further exchanges?
Tim:
You are right and I have edited the title of this post. Thanks for helping me correct this mistake.
A just scanned down the page and saw Living Dust's comments about this debate being "man made".
I find it disturbing that the definition of the Gospel is determined to be a "man made" debate by anybody. Here's one of the questions at stake, Dusty: did Christ only make it possible to be saved (meaning: salvation is now available in His blood, but not secured) or did Christ once and forever actually save anyone at the cross (meaning: salvation is secured in His blood, being unrevocable and a source of comfort for those who are in Him)?
If there is a debate over this point, I would also call it "man made", but not in the sense that you do. This is not posturing and bickering: this is about whether God is passive or active in the saving of men, and that is the dividing line between all other religions and the faith once delivered to the saints.
As for the splitting of churches. I will not name names because I am not a member of one of any of the 3 churches that I allude to. In 1999-2000 the same 2 pastors served in 2 SBC churches (upstate SC) and both split. One after they left, the next they pastored the new split church. Having talked to members of the 1st split off church, in their opinion, many were open, but they were heavy handed.
2d example was in a large church in Southern AL. I am again, not a member of either the original or the Reformation minded new church, but, the Founders Journal and many church press members reported on it. In this case it appears that the Pastor was on the page that most Founders Friendly folks endorse (let the Biblical truth of God's soveriegnty come out in expositional preaching and ministry), but a large section of the church rebelled. As I posted in the 3d or 4th post, this new church is unapoligetically reformamtion minded and evangelical/outreach minded which counters many of the assertions made against the pastor and those who started the new church.
If you look on the FF church pages you can probably put 2 and 2 together or there maybe folks who are more comfortable giving details than I am (due to closer knowledge of the situations).
Greg B
(Powhatan VA)
Pardon me. My first example was muddled to say the least. The 2 pastors were judged to be heavy handed by even the reformation minded members who established the new reformed church.
Calvinism can divide churches. Often times becuase of poor judgement by pastors, often times because of the congregation not understanding what Reformed theology is (like Dr. Caner), sometimes because as a DOM in upstate SC told me "the problem is unsaved people are running our churches."
Tom,
Reading the comments by livingdust has brought back some memories when I was on staff at FBCW. Let me be clear that I and others welcome the words of livingdust though we disagree but he carries himself well on the blog. You can talk with people who disagree with you that really want dialogue. His comments bring some things to mind.
1. Alot of Southern Baptist view the convention as above the commands of Scripture. They would never admit to this statement but we have read other blog comments that seem to refer to not rocking the boat within the SBC. It's like the Mormons( The Mormons will say that they believe in Jesus but you and I know that what is really important is what does one believe about Jesus that seperates us). So alot of Southern Baptist will say that we should just " Love Jesus" rather than looking at Why have I come to love Jesus . Example: Most Southern Baptists will use language like " Thank God I'm saved" and I agree with them but when we teach Calvinism( The Scriptures) and teach people all the things that God has done for His Elect to bring about Salvation( Election, the gospel call, Effectual Calling) we are accused of " Just being Academic" like the comment by livingdust about our degrees. The reason why I can say" Thank God I'm saved" is because I have been made to see in Scripture all that God has done to bring about His salvation within me. I used to hear Dr. Johnny Hunt say all the time when preaching " I may not be great at pronouncing words or a theologian or be the deepest but praise God I at least use what I got and tell people about Jesus" and the crowd would go absolute wild while he ran back n forth on the platform or stood on a chair. I would agree with Dr. Hunt that even a converted child or the simplest converted man can be used to glorify God but it's almost attacking Calvinist because if we explain what Scripture says about these things like Paul did we are accused of being just " Intellectual" " Just want to sit around and read" and not care about the souls of men. So livingdust comments almost remind me of the mentality at FBCW of just give them Jesus rather than are we really giving them the Jesus of the Bible. Dr. Graham has made comments about Calvinist " This elitist Theology or People". The comments by livingdust just prove how much more praying and teaching needs to be done by " Faithful men" in shepherding our churches.
2. The comment by livingdust about division is another sign that we don't understand biblical evangelism. Though he never said this but I bet you can trace it to this because most Southern Baptist would say we have a world to reach for Christ( And Calvinist agree) so we don't have time to get into this " Calvinist Stuff" though Paul's letters are dominated with it. Dr. Roy Hargraves book AN IDOL CALLED EVANGELISM is a must read. Just the title will make people "Freak Out" and charge Calvinist with not wanting to Evangelize. At FBCW you rarely heard in Evangelism Training or the pulpit about what brought about our salvation and what actually needs to be said to sinners about themselves and what does it mean to follow Christ but we continually heard " Just ask Jesus into your hearts" rather than why we need to ask Jesus into our hearts.So, livingdust comments are a product of what they get from majority of our pulpits. All of this has produced in the SBC large unregenerate members, godless behavior within churches and families, and a placing of the Convention over truth in our local churches.
3. I hope the comments by livingdust show us why we need to confront men like Drs. Caner, Hunt, Graham and etc that we stand to protect our churches from what has been going on.
I'm afraid that the Independent Baptists like Curtis H, John Rice, and the Sword of the Lord group was right about the SBC on one thing " The SBC Political Machine" is killing us and we wonder why are seminaries, agencies were filled with " False Teaching" and how professors had tenure and could not be touched because they were protected by the Machine . The Convention has made men worry about status, job, and not rocking the boat and I'm afraid the line of " Not dividing us anymore" will continue to be our downfall.
Livingdust,
Please know that I don't question that you are a Christian or that you don't want things to get better in the SBC but I do disagree with you but that's why we have the blog to openly and lovingly discuss things that might make us more sharper for the KIngdom.
This is likely lost in the ether....
I've come to see that the overly degreed Mr. Caner is not alone in his willful ignorance, in spite of his "education". This is not a shot at Caner as much as the reality that simply being "well read" or educated does not mean you don't have holes in your knowledge.
If you can read through the histories and doctrinal books of Baptists from just 100 years ago, you will realize that while they were certainly Calvinist, they also weren't believing the things men like Caner accuse them of. And we are of that strain of particular (Particular) Baptists.
I had a short discussion with an Arminian pastor last evening and he was surprised to find that I (as a Calvinist) believed in the Doctrine of Justification by Faith. He holds a Doctorate. (He also found it strange that I value Matthew Henry above any other commentary... but that's a different matter altogether)
I wonder, honestly, if we are not being confused with other Baptists? After all, aren't the group that holds up the "God hates fags" signs calling themselves Baptist? Perhaps the problem with Calvinism is the same... we are being accused by confused name-association.
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Tom said:
“Actually, we did that 10 years ago.”
Ah, I knew it was too obvious for me to be the first with the idea :) Please forgive my ignorance and youthful zeal. I was but 15 years old at that time - just another teenager rebelling against God and fulfilling Jeremiah 17:9.
I will pick up a copy of that Founders Journal and also the Iain Murray book. I can pass out copies to some of the younger anticalvinist pastors in my area:)
Centuri0n:
You asked, "Is there any word on the debate this fall? Have any of the principles had any further exchanges?"
Answer: All is quiet on the eastern front...despite numerous attempts to have the moderator clarify the thesis and parameters of the debate.
i agree with dr. caner. i am not a five-point calvinist. i am not an arminian. i am a christian. i am a biblicist. i am a baptist.
whats sad is that some of you five pointers are so into calvinism that you dont even realize you are off the deep end. you have blinders on your eyes and cannot see the truth about yourselves. i do understand what you believe, and you are into an extreme. you dont want to admit it.
God bless you. i pray that you will grow in your understanding of the bible. i pray that the Lord will lead you into His glorious truth.
volfan 007 -
Thank you for your prayers. We'll do the same for you, that you might grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ unto a perfect and mature believer.
BTW, can I ask a question? If God did not intend to communicate His sovereignty in salvation for the glory of His grace alone, why did He use words like election, predestination, and chosen? God knows that these words would be divisive so what was His reason for using them?
Another question, is a man born again by an act of his will?
CR
Likewise Volfan (I want to joke about saving you from Big Orange):
I will pray that you see our interpretation of scripture as one that captures the truth of the Gospel as God created and communicated it. God honoring at its core.
Off the deepend. I see very few "Calvinists"that cut off fellowship because of disagreements on this issue.
Greg B
Volfan007 said:
"i agree with dr. caner. i am not a five-point calvinist. i am not an arminian. i am a christian. i am a biblicist. i am a baptist."
A biblicist is also a rational person. They seek to sort things out carefully, and to deal with historical differences accurately. They would realize that under the large umbrella term "Christian," there are baptists and non-baptists. Then, under the subgroup "baptist," there are those that share soteriological and exegetical viewpoints in common with Calvin (Calvinists), and those who do not (non-Calvinists). Sometimes the non-Calvinists are classified as Arminians since they share certain soteriological and exegetical viewpoints in common with that system. People in each group are not labeled Calvinists or Arminians because they entirely agree with the system of thought associated with each man, but because they have alot in common with the soteriological positions of either person. Many "Calvinists" on this board are higher than Calvin himself, yet they are still called Calvinists. Some who comment on this board do not go as far as Arminius, but they still maintain a free will viewpoint, conditional election, resistable grace and an equal universal redemption. In so far as their views overlap with Arminius, they may be accurately labeled Arminians for the sake of theological shorthand.
When a Calvinist calls another an "Arminian," they are NOT saying the person is not a Christian, or not a baptist, or not a biblicist. I hope that you would be historically honest enough to say the same about some of us Calvinists, i.e. that we are Christians, baptists and biblicists.
In addition to being a baptistic Christian who seeks to follow the bible in all things, I hope and pray that you would also seek to be rational in all things. Such is the biblical mandate for any disciple of Christ.
God bless you. I pray that you will grow in your understanding of the bible. I pray that the Lord will lead you into His glorious truth.
I'm a Vol fan and a Calvinist.
Don't let one bad egg ruin it for the rest of the Vol fans.:-)
Volfan:
I hate to ask a really stupid question, but what does "Vol fan" mean? I kept hoping someone would say enough so I could read and figure it out, and not have to embarrass myself by asking, but all to no avail. :)
BTW, when it comes to sports, I am cave boy. Mr. Cave Boy, now that I've grown up, in fact. I didn't even know exactly who the Mavericks were until recently.
Volfan, you wrote:
whats sad is that some of you five pointers are so into calvinism that you dont even realize you are off the deep end. you have blinders on your eyes and cannot see the truth about yourselves. i do understand what you believe, and you are into an extreme. you dont want to admit it.
The deep end? Blinders? Cannot see the truth about ourselves? We are into an extreme?
Honestly, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by any of those statements. Off the deep end as in what? Such a term can be used positively ("He's gone off the deep end in His passion for God") or pejoratively ("He's gone off the deep end; he's lost his mind").
May God strip away blinders from me and others. Indeed, we all come with preconceptions, and by God's grace we must distance ourselves from them when we interpret the Bible. Much prayer is indeed required for this, and often God uses others to speak to us. Might I ask, what blinder do we have that you are aware of but we are not? If you can truly be of help to us, we would welcome it, and consider it the providence and power of God that spoke through you to help us.
What truth about ourselves are we not seeing? What is this "extremism" that we possess? All I want to do is divide the Scriptures rightly, live them out, and encourage others to do the same. On what level have I and the others here failed to do that? In this post at least (there may be others that I either haven't seen or have forgotten about to my shame), you have not provided the Scriptures we have abused (either doctrinally or in attitude) and then the correct interpretations of them. The Word of God is inerrant; it must be what we use when determining the results of such things. Would you not agree?
Indeed, what people such as myself call for frequently in our churches is for the inerrancy of the Scriptures to be held to in practice and not just in name. If we hold to the Word being inerrant, then it should be the focus our of preaching, and we should endeavor strongly to dive into it and bring out its meaning, for only it and not my own ideas is the trustworthy revelation of God.
That is part of the reason I fervently believe what is often called "Reformed Theology" to be biblical Christianity. There are many things that I do not understand fully, especially things relating to the Doctrine of Providence. Yet, I cannot deny that the Scriptures teach these things that I cannot reconcile in my mind. However, the Scriptures are inerrant; my understanding is not, and therefore I go forward proclaiming the truth of them while taking my lack of complete understanding as yet another manifestation of the awesome glory of my God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
For the Glory of the Name,
David Hewitt
David,
What a logical, well-thoughtout response to the last caller. May your tribe increase, may you catch the big ONE, dude!
If I am correct, and I would bet the farm I am, VolFan007 is one of those folks who get up at Ohhhh-dark 30 every fall Sat to drive I40 from Memphis to Knoxville to watch some very large and fast young men chase a pig bladder around a field with lines on it. He is a fan of the University of TN athletics. UT folks are great fans. The type that opponents think are obnoxious, but their players and coaches really appreciate.
i am a huge ut fan. i wish that i could attend more games. i dont face paint, but i get close.
now, i mean by extreme that you all are into an extreme of theology...a tangent. just as the landmarkers are off into an extreme. just as the charismatics are off the deep end. i believe that you are christians. i believe that you are very sincere. i believe that you seek to live for the Lord. you are just off on a tangent.
by the way, i believe that God planned to save me from eternity past. He foreknew me. He chose me. He is sovereign.
does that blow yall's minds?
with equal zeal, i believe that man has to make choices and has responsibility. i believe that man has to respond to God in order to be saved, and he can reject God.
i can see yall's eyes twitching now. i can see yall's typing fingers getting itchy. i can see yall's blood pressure going up. calm down. it's ok.
matthew 23:37....you would not....not that God would not...that you would not!!!!
I think that volfan007 is not interested in answering my ?'s -
I said,
"BTW, can I ask a question? If God did not intend to communicate His sovereignty in salvation for the glory of His grace alone, why did He use words like election, predestination, and chosen? God knows that these words would be divisive so what was His reason for using them?
Another question, is a man born again by an act of his will?"
My thoughts since vf007 has not replied -
I suppose vf007 is either not interested in anything except arguing phrases and labels (ie: calvinist, arminian, christian, baptist, biblicist) so as to redefine their meanings or he is not interested in discussing meaningful and straightforward questions about the text of scripture.
Perhaps vf007 is a bit intimidated to actually consider the text?
So, in vf007's conspicuous absence, I will provide the answers to my own questions:
1) God inspired specific words including election (to make a choice, select out of), predestination (determine one's destiny beforehand -ie: in eternity past), and chosen (to make a divine choice or selection) because that is precisely what God does/did/and wills to reveal about Himself and ourselves in relationship to Him.
2) A man is not born again by an act of His will but only by God's power alone...
John 1:13 "who were born (spiritually), not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"
John 3:3,8 "Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God...The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Romans 9:16 "So then it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." (ie: God's purpose in election)
CR
Volfan007 said:
"by the way, i believe that God planned to save me from eternity past. He foreknew me. He chose me. He is sovereign.
does that blow yall's minds?"
No, it doesn't. The fact that you think that such words would “blow our minds” reveals that you do not yet sufficiently understand the historical issues. Both the Calvinists and the Arminians can affirm the above words, i.e. “God planned to save me from eternity past. He foreknew me. He chose me. He is sovereign.” The crucial questions concern the nature of God’s plan to save human beings, the nature of foreknowledge, the basis for his choosing anyone, and the meaning of his sovereignty. It seems that you delight in theological ambiguity. You’re making assertions that don’t further the discussion, and you’re describing yourself in a very ambiguous way.
Volfan007 said:
"with equal zeal, i believe that man has to make choices and has responsibility. i believe that man has to respond to God in order to be saved, and he can reject God."
Once again, both Arminians and Calvinists can affirm all the above words. The questions concern the nature of man’s choices, whether they are determined or undetermined. All believe that man is responsible. I don’t think that there are even heretics who would deny that. It’s only the hyper-Calvinists who like to say that man is accountable but not responsible. Everyone on this board also believes that man has to respond to God in order to be saved (i.e. justified). We also believe that man can reject God, but we insist that God is able to so change a human heart that they (the elect) will not ultimately reject him.
Volfan007 said:
"i can see yall's eyes twitching now. i can see yall's typing fingers getting itchy. i can see yall's blood pressure going up. calm down. it's ok."
Your visions of people with eyes twitching and fingers itching are only in your own mind. You are not saying anything controversial, but you think that you are. You’re only displaying a remarkable gift for persistent ambiguity. We are calmly watching you type things that are very vague. I am just baffled by the display of historical and theological ignorance.
You seem to be rebuking and admonishing us for things you have not yet studied, apparently. This does not describe the behavior of a biblicist.
Volfan007, Hello!
These "Founders" types are more Calvinistic than Calvin and nothing like C. H. Spurgeon. Keep that in mind.
Charles
Charles:
Your words have a sprinkling of truth, but in reality are false. Are we "more Calvinistic than Calvin"? Well, maybe, but anymore we need to define what "more Calvinistic" means with all of the confusion there is out there about the term. Again, and perhaps it is just me (forgive my slowness of understanding), but I'm not completely sure what you mean. Do you mean a "higher" type like ynottony has mentioned, or do you mean something altogether different? Having read a few things on your blog in weeks past, I honestly don't know which it is.
Secondly, we are not completely like Spurgeon; indeed, who could be. I doubt I'll ever be as good a preacher or theologian as he. However, to say that we are "nothing like C.H. Spurgeon" is simply not true. From my meager understanding, it would appear that the majority of the regular contributors to this blog are more like Spurgeon theologically than not like him -- a far cry from being "nothing" like him. Even if it were the other way, your term "nothing" remains untrue. As your brother in Christ, I admonish you -- be careful how you use words such as that. They tend to communicate the wrong things unless they are carefully employed; it definitely appears that you have failed to use such care.
volfan:
ynottony responded to your words better than I could have for sure; I'll simply allow my response to be his. :)
SDG,
David Hewitt
I was introduced to the Doctrines of Grace over 15 years ago. When the Pastor and elders discipled me, I was shown certain scriptures that I tried and tried to argue with. The more I tried to disprove Calvinism, the more the HOLY SPIRIT (Not hollering, it is just my habit to capitalize, anything refering to God) proved them to be true.
The Pastor and Elders helped in such a loving way and at the same time encouraged evangelization to the extreme. Romans 10:17 was pounded into my heart and memory, for we must present the Gospel to all, and the WORD will not return void, but will accomplish what the FATHER has intended it to do.
BUT, I understand where a lot of our brothers and sisters are misled. There was a couple within the church that tended to be arrogant and proud of their doctrine. There was no humility whatsoever. Later on, I found myself becoming like them. My wife would reprimand me often because when I meet a new pastor my first question was "Are you a Calvinist?". If not then I proceded to berate them.
There are many young men that are coming to the knowledge of the Doctrines of Grace, but are not being equipped how to lovingly present them. At least that is the case in my area.
I rejoice in the fact that many are looking into the Scriptures and seeing these particular doctrines. This is the work of GOD. The Word will cleave asunder, but we will we be filled with the SPIRIT enough to be gracious and not allow the old cliches to reign?
I'm sorry, I don't see much hopeful in Caners comments. Looks rather to me like he has painted himself into a corner and refuses to correct the problem. I'm sure there are some over the top Calvinists in the SBC, but they're not prominent as far as I can tell. Certainly nothing to warrant the ahistoric and false characterization he