Humpty Dumpty Theology [edited]
This seems to be an appropriate designation for those doctrinal speculations that have more in common with nursery rhymes and fairy tales than with Scripture. Humpty Dumpty, you may recall, is an anthropomorphized egg given to the world by Mother Goose. It was Lewis Carroll, however, that showed Humpty to be a preacher after the order of many modern ministers.
We learn this in Carroll's Through the Looking Glass during a conversation on sematics between the egg and Alice.
Consider Price's explanation of election:
In his treatment of Calvinism and Non-Calvinism, Price demonstrates that he really does not know what he is talking about. I mean no disrespect, but this is demonstrably true. He opposes the TULIP acrostic with what he calls a "response" in the form of the ROSES acrostic, which, he says, "REPRESENT[S] THE POSITION HELD BY NON-CALVINISTS." Perhaps he never read the Lifeway publication entitled, Amazing Grace, written by Timothy George. That is unfortunate because it is in that book that George offers the ROSES acrostic, not as a non-Calvinist response to the TULIP, but as a restatement and less offensive way to declare eseentially the same thing! George has long referred to himself as a "Reformed Baptist" and has served on the editorial board of the Founders Journal. [EDIT: Nelson Price has changed this article on his website after having the erroneous use depiction of the ROSES acrostic pointed out to him. As a result, he has stuck with the acrostic but radically reinterpreted Timothy George's original meaning that was assigned to each point--once again illustrating the whole point of the title of this post.]
I genuinely want to see Southern Baptists engaging in theological dialogues. But if Humpty Dumpty's laws of language continue to dominate certain sectors of the denominational landscape, that will be hard to do.
We learn this in Carroll's Through the Looking Glass during a conversation on sematics between the egg and Alice.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less."You must admit, isn't that eggsactly what some preachers do with biblical words? For a recent example read Nelson Price's article in the November 23, 2006 Christian Index. The title gives away the content: "Evangelical Calvinism is an oxymoron." Even if one overlooks his blatant misrepresentations of Calvinism as a theological construct, it is hard to ignore the Humpty Dumptical redefinition of words taken straight from the text of Scripture.
Consider Price's explanation of election:
Election is clearly taught in Scripture. It is the definition given it that confuses persons.Yes, and most Baptists can run 100 yards in 6 seconds when a yard is defined as 3 centimeters. Price engages in similar Humpty Dumpty theology when he defines predestination and explains foreknowledge. For those who want to be further instructed in this vein Price gives his personal website, where he similarly treats elders, church discipline and "Calvinism and Non-Calvinism."
Most Baptists believe in election when defined as God, having the sovereign right to do so, gave man a free will to choose his or her eternal destiny depending of his or her faith in Christ.
In his treatment of Calvinism and Non-Calvinism, Price demonstrates that he really does not know what he is talking about. I mean no disrespect, but this is demonstrably true. He opposes the TULIP acrostic with what he calls a "response" in the form of the ROSES acrostic, which, he says, "REPRESENT[S] THE POSITION HELD BY NON-CALVINISTS." Perhaps he never read the Lifeway publication entitled, Amazing Grace, written by Timothy George. That is unfortunate because it is in that book that George offers the ROSES acrostic, not as a non-Calvinist response to the TULIP, but as a restatement and less offensive way to declare eseentially the same thing! George has long referred to himself as a "Reformed Baptist" and has served on the editorial board of the Founders Journal. [EDIT: Nelson Price has changed this article on his website after having the erroneous use depiction of the ROSES acrostic pointed out to him. As a result, he has stuck with the acrostic but radically reinterpreted Timothy George's original meaning that was assigned to each point--once again illustrating the whole point of the title of this post.]
I genuinely want to see Southern Baptists engaging in theological dialogues. But if Humpty Dumpty's laws of language continue to dominate certain sectors of the denominational landscape, that will be hard to do.

164 Comments:
I was shocked to see, on a continued page of the letter, who authored the letter you are writing about in The Christian Index. Is this standard Southern Baptist seminary training that has secret definitions for theological terms like election? This does not speak well for our seminaries or for future theological discussion with "leaders" of days gone by and of today.
Fletcher Law
This in the article is unbelievable and further shows the ignorance, if I may use the word, concerning what the doctrine teaches:
"A graphic understood by many Baptists regarding predestination is illustrated by this. A mass of people are gathered at a bus stop marked �Planet Earth.� Along comes the Celestial Bus marked �Destination Heaven.� It pulls up and stops. The driver, who is God, opens the door, and says, �All destined for heaven get on board.� A number do. A missionary couple who with zeal have served Christ all their lives start on and God says, �Step aside. You haven�t been chosen to ride this bus.� A couple of infants start on and God tells them to step aside. Persons who from youth have loved and ministered in Christ�s name are told to step aside. As the bus is about to depart and the door is closing God says to those not on board, �Catch the next bus.� �No,� they plead, �here comes the next bus and it is driven by Satan and marked �Destination Hell.��
�Sorry,� says God. �I didn�t choose to save you. Your love and commitment to Jesus doesn�t matter.�.�"
I just do not know what to say. How many errors can you pile up in one article? If ignorance is bliss then this man is very happy.
What is sad is that this is how many people think and it is this thinking that stifles dialogue.
HUMPTY DUMPTY: "all the King's horses and all the King's men, couldn't put Humpty together again." Isn't it nice that the KING of KINGS can?
Tom,
there can only be one reason for such silliness...politics. So my question is this...what are the Armenians in our convention so afraid of? The technicalities of their soteriology doesn't bother me, most of my pastor friends and mentors are not reformed...they don't bother me a bit. Why is the reverse not the case? Many seem SO threatened by reformed southern baptists...why?
irreverend fox:
That really is the question. I don't have a definitive answer. It seems that many are afraid of serious theological dialogue at all. Some SBC leaders have whispered that the SBC is not ready for such discussion because so many pastors are ill-equipped to engage in it. That may be true. There are certainly no shortage of examples of blatant doctrinal misunderstanding that support that thesis.
Pride seems to be a problem, just by a cursory read of his web site. Just try to imagine Spurgeon having a separate page section of commendations. I can't imagine.
Great post, Tom. Thanks for the info. I believe you were correct in your comment to "irreverend fox." Rather than engage Reformed theology, which contradicts their teaching and understanding, it's easier just to slander it harshly in hopes that will satisfy their questioners or congregation.
He simply does not know what he is writing about.
What an understatement.
Deja vu - same old - same old - so what is new?
But the ignorance of truth is totally intentional on the part of so many in the SBC, and one fears that is the case with this guy.
There is a word for all who intentionally, persistently
and purposefully falsify and misrepresent the truth!
The bus stop analogy is so bad I'm stunned.
Tom,
you just nailed it...I'm one of the few guys in our association not seminary "trained"...yet I'm usually the one in our group who initiates theological discussion...most guys seem to only want to talk about church growth…which is fine I guess so long as we are talking about church growth via evangelism and discipleship…that of course is not always the case…
regardless…you just nailed it I really think. many guys are shallow in their theology and seemed threatened by a well reasoned view that is contrary to the way they were first taught…
Tom,
Did you hear that Dr. Price preached against Calvinism Sunday night. Take a guess a what church? FBC Woodstock ! Is this a shock ? A friend of mine is a member at FBCW and called me and told me. Dr. Hunt was singing the praises of this great sermon by Dr. Price.Also, evangelist Tony Nolan who is a member at FBCW was overheard telling Dr. Price in line shaking his hand on how much that sermon was needed. Guess where Tony Nolan spoke a few weeks ago ( Southeastern Seminary). Does Dr. Akin know how many of his Chapel speakers hardly embrace one of the five points. Hunt, Price, Vines, Caners, and Nolan could not sign the Abstract with any integrity.
These men are very close to methodist theology. Hello Seminary Presidents( Does it matter anymore about guest speakers in what they believe) ?
If you want to listen to Dr. Price you can go to www.fbcw.org and go to their webcast section to listen to the message. The message should be up soon. A friend of mine told me what he said in his message Sunday night.
I have seen it with my eyes on this blog from some people that they think we can really work together with these men and that the tent of the SBC has enough room for us all( If that is the case then why have a Confession of Faith).
Well, what other tactic could we expect? If they can't prove their case against Reformed Theology with the Holy Writ . . . their only option is 'school bus analogies.' It is the foolishness of preaching (the Word of God), not the silliness of 'school bus analogies', that will reform the SBC! Let them use those foolish analogies all they want. . . as for me, I will continue to preach, "Thus saith the LORD!"
Chadwick
Brother Tom,
I am Amazed at the levels these individuals will stoup to! They are trying to rid the church of the truth. If we lived in less civilized time peroid(for exsample the time of Athanasius) They would send mobs out to kill our preachers and murder the people of Chirst in order to stamp out the true teaching of Salvation. The old adage rings so true "People Hate What They Dont Understand."
I find it intersting that Semi-palagian Baptist are redifineing terms the same way that mormons and JW's redifne orthodox terms, in order to fit thier theology.
I thank God Daily For sending the Church men, like Brother White and You Brother Tom. To stand for the truth.
One last thing that bus ride analogy is intersting. It wants to play at the heart strings of the huministic mind. The intersting thing is, The individual is concentrating on the works of the indiviuals that God is telling that he hasnt chosen to ride the "Bus" to heaven. But I would leave that individual with one thought the words of Chirst in
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
So I think for the most part this individual thinks that if he does A,B And C God owes him Salvation.
If any one dosent agree with my inferance let me know. But for now I will fade quitely in to obscurity untill I post Agian.
A Big Amen to you Brother Tom for leting the truth be known
Dr. Ascol,
Thank you for the post. Nor do I agree with portions of Dr. Price's piece. I think perhaps the weakest link is the "bus illustration" which needs some serious tweaking before it will work. I may just revise it and send him a copy :)
I do think he is right on spot, however, in his assertion that most Southern Baptists find repulsive the idea that God creates human beings for the specific purpose of damning them to Hell--all for His glory, of course. This is at least how non-Calvinists understand the stronger Calvinist confessional statement in the 1689 document.
In addition, most SBs equally deny God "decreed" sin which Dr. Price asserts comes from a popular living Reformed author, the identity of which, unfortunately, he does not name. I do not know of a recent Baptist theologian who has asserted such. Do you? I assume he may be perhaps refering to a theologian like Dr. Edwin Palmer, who, in fact, blatantly says such.
At any rate, if Dr. Price embraces theological Humpty Dumptism, I imagine that goes for over ninety percent of all Southern Baptists, including, of course, yours truly.
If so, how can one expect serious dialog to actually take place in such a fictious environment? For me, I have rarely found a conversation enriching when either I or the other person thinks the differing view a bit of a nursery rhyme.
I trust your day goes well, my Brother Dr. Ascol. With that, I am...
Peter
The Baptist preacher from Georgia has done it again. If my memory serves me well, Dr. Price was instrumental in leading NAMB (then known as the Home Mission Board ) to implement it's "speaking in tongues disqualifies you" policy for candidates seeking appointment.
Earlier this year, I heard a leading SBC man tell a group of young seminary students that the "Calvinists" and the "Charismatics" need to be removed from our denomination.
This "Humpty Dumpty Theology" needs to be removed from our denomination in my opinion.
Tom, thank you for your post and comments on this disturbing article by Dr. Price.
J.D. Rector
Dear Brothers and Sisters:
I looked at Dr. Prices' site and looked over his misuse of Roses (my wife taught Amazing Grace to a group of ladies 3 years ago). I contacted him about the origin of the acrostic and how it was penned to be quite the opposite of his portrayal. He had a response back to me within moments. He said he was unaware of its origin and claims T. George as a friend. I suggested he seek out the study (it was in Lifeway here in Richmond just a few months ago)as it would explain the acrostic and maybe clear up some percieved misconceptions. Looking over the site, I believe he is one of our poor fathers in the ministry that are suffering from a liberal leaning education, but they do know that the Bible is inerrant, just not sure what it means. Gee, sounds a little like me.
Greg Bailey
Powhatan, VA
When I see the phrase "Evangelical Calvinism is an oxymoron" it saddens me. And so does "We should remove Calvinists and Charismatics from our denomination." Am I a charismatic? No, but I am not haughty enought to act as though "I have arrived" in my theology. It sounds as though Price likes to speak for God instead of proclaim God. I don't mind speaking of the things of God but we still should be unified. Why must he, and others, denounce brothers so boldly as to say that "Evangelical Calvinism is an oxymoron" I don't agree with the ariminian camp or anything less than the 5 points of Calvinism but I am far from denouncing those opposed to that view point as less than evangelical. wow...
Deception of any sort is NOT OF GOD!
“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.” (John 8:44)
Word deception is a Lie… plain and simple.
Redefining theological words is a Lie… plain and simple.
Nelson Price's definition of Election is a Lie… plain and simple.
Baker’s Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology is readily available on line at http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/BakersEvangelicalDictionary/
I am shocked that such a vulgar display of lack of integrity is applauded by anyone, much less SBC Leaders. And I find it very disturbing that such dishonesty is printed in any Baptist paper… or that the author is allowed to speak at Southeastern Seminary and is invited to preach at FBC Wookstock.
It is clear that Price has no respect for the Abstract of Principles, or the BFC-2000, both of which contain a clear definition of the doctrine of Election.
I agree that bus stop thing is beyond ridiculous! It's the typical Arminian straw man of 'what about those people who truly want to repent but are not elect?' There are no such people!! I used to think highly of Neson Price. Sad he's come to this.
Who exactly is Price trying to convince? I think the bus illustration was probably the worste Calvinist mis-representation i've ever seen. Truly Sad.
Dear Brother Larry,
I have yet to look at Dr. Price's website but I intend to surf there later today. I think most any analogy can be viewed as ridiculous by the opposing view. And, the bus does seem to me a poor attempt to give teeth to a view one opposes. I personally attempt to do the very same thing by some of my little fables I invent. And to be honest, I too have laid my share of eggs.
Unfortunately, I do not share your view that the bus gig is the proverbial strawman which, many times, is purposely employed to misrepresent a view in order to defeat it. I personally think Dr. Price thinks he HAS been fair to Calvinist thinking. Thus, his view may be mistaken--I think it is, if he believes the bus illustration adequately captures the essence of Calvinist belief about Election--but, for me at least, being mistaken about a view and misrepresenting a view must be distinguished.
I do not know Dr. Price personally. I know he must have done a very good job as Pastor at RSBC all those years and has, up until his retirement at least, been a an active SBC leader.
Have a great day. With that, I am...Peter
Dear Brother g.alford,
Consider the following statement I recently told my wife: "Most people who celebrate Christmas, do so on December 24th."
Pertaining to the truthfulness of this statement, there are, in order to simplify, two possibilities:
A) I uttered the truth. Most celebrate on 12/24.
B) I uttered an untruth. Most celebrate on 12/25. But in uttering the untruth, there are, in order to simplify, two further possibilities:
a)I was sincerely mistaken. A study I read was proven flawed
b) I intentionly lied so I could get my new Dell Laptop my wife bought me sooner.
Surely it is easy to see the difference between these two forms of uttering untruth--sincere mistakenness on the one hand and intentional falsifying on the other (which my wife did not believe by the way:(
Three times, my Brother g.alford, you appear to call Dr. Price a liar. For my part, I simply cannot understand exactly why you choose to embrace the worst form of uttering--at least in your view--untruth. Do you possess a great deal more information about his character to which most of us are not privy that necessarily draws you to this stark conclusion? Moreover, is it at least a bare possibility that Dr. Price is not a deviant liar but simply mistaken in his view about Calvinism? I think that surely needs to be considered.
I trust your evening is filled with grace. With that, I am...
Peter
Agreed Peter. I don't think he intends to lie, hence he isn't lying. However, he hasn't done his homework and this is what he should be called to task on as I hope he would call me to task on something he viewed me as speaking about out of ignorance. We have no need to demonize misled brothers.
Greg
Good to hear from you again.
Peter,
The man has spoken untruthfully…
I stated nothing about his views on Calvinism… he is entitled to his opinion, I can not for it, but he is entitled to it nonetheless.
What I have posted about is his false definition of a long established theological term (Election).
I do not think he has simply made a mistake… I think he has rejected the doctrine of election (as it is expressed in our Baptist Faith and Message) and in doing so it would appear that he believes himself free to redefine the meaning of the word.
It has long been the practice of liberals to redefine the established meaning of words in an attempt to change the meaning of scripture or historic documents… and in doing so they speak untruthfully and deceive those who are not so well versed, and who do not know the any better than to trust them.
I leave you with this (which you cannot deny)… “The man has spoken untruthfully…”
What is this man's doctorate in? Is it a Doctor of Theology or Ministry from a Southern Baptist Seminary? If so, we know that he had to take some languages, biblical exegesis, and church history courses. That being the case, he must have either have lost his memory, gone to a terrible seminary that can't even teach the basic theological definitions, or is lying.
I doubt very seriously that we can just say that he hasn't done his research. He has a doctorate and is a retired Baptist minister. To not know even close to the biblical definition of election or predestination, whether you agree with Calvinism or not, is without excuse.
want...as for me, I will continue to preach, "Thus saith the LORD!"
May I ask you, Chadwick? Who says the SBC needs reforming? From all I've been reading lately, no one says anyone wants to "reform" the SBC. Do you know something I don't that I should be looking into? SelahV
Samuel J. Bell III said: "They are trying to rid the church of the truth. If we lived in less civilized time peroid(for exsample the time of Athanasius) They would send mobs out to kill our preachers and murder the people of Chirst in order to stamp out the true teaching of Salvation."
May I ask Bro. Bell the Third, Who are "they"? As a minister's wife of over 23 years I have heard "they" used to describe groups of imaginary folks in every church I've been part of. "they" won't let us, "they" have never done it that way, "they" this and "they" that. Who are "they"? A person who doesn't adhere to the Calvinist Tulip? I don't adhere to it. But I don't think I am a "they". And even in my most uncivilized moment of anger, I would never send out mobs to kill anyone. Goodness! Who are "they" that would do such things if "they" weren't under the constraints of 21st century laws? SelahV
Gomarus said: "Rather than engage Reformed theology, which contradicts their teaching and understanding, it's easier just to slander it harshly in hopes that will satisfy their questioners or congregation."
I ask you Gomarus: In reference to "Reformed theology that contradicts "their" teaching and understanding", I have not chosen to slander it harshly. No pastor I have had has ever tried to do so to satisfy questioners or congregations. I trust that this must be true of some, because you have stated so here in Founders blogsite. But I haven't heard any do this from a pulpit. How long has such slander been going on? And from all I gather in my trying to decipher "reformed theology" that's been around for centuries upon centuries, no one seems to be in total agreement with it within the "reformed" living community of bloggers. Everyone seems to have varying degrees of what being "reformed" is. Is it the 9 marks? The 5 points? The Tulip or a bunch of Roses? Help me. I am trying to be enlightened here. SelahV
The school bus story was just plain STUPID!! What a waste of ink and newsprint!!
Be blessed!!
Irrevend fox said: "there can only be one reason for such silliness...politics. So my question is this...what are the Armenians in our convention so afraid of? The technicalities of their soteriology doesn't bother me, most of my pastor friends and mentors are not reformed...they don't bother me a bit. Why is the reverse not the case? Many seem SO threatened by reformed southern baptists...why?"
My question to you Fox: I thought it was Arminians not Armenians. And why is what an opposing person says, considered silliness and politics while what another says is simply "reformed"? And are those pastor friends and mentors of yours that are not reformed aware that you consider that they feel "threatened by reformed southern baptists"? Did Price say he was an Armenian? From what I am reading on Dr. Olson, I don't think I am an Arminian, but I don't agree with all the Calvinist theology either. So what am I? SelahV
Dr. Ascol: What difference does it make what Price thinks? What difference does it make to the SBC? If in fact, no one with the Reformed theology plans on trying to take over the SBC like the conservative movement did years ago, what difference does any of this make?
If Calvinists have the truth, then surely we can rest assured that the truth will be like cream and rise to the top. All will bow some day to the TRUTH, won't we? He did say He was THE Truth and THE Way, didn't He?
If in fact, "some SBC leaders have whispered that the SBC is not ready for such discussions because so many pastors are ill-equipped to engage in it", then why are so many people blogging about it?
I have fellow Christians right now that don't agree with every ryhme and reason I have regarding Jesus....my salvation and my eternal destiny. I haven't let what they think about what I think influence me one whit.
But what really slaps my brain into Proverbs 11:29 is the: "Did you hear that Dr. Price preached against Calvinism Sunday night. Take a guess a what church? FBC Woodstock ! Is this a shock ? A friend of mine is a member at FBCW and called me and told me. Dr. Hunt was singing the praises of this great sermon by Dr. Price. Also, evangelist Tony Nolan who is a member at FBCW was overheard telling Dr. Price in line shaking his hand on how much that sermon was needed. Guess where Tony Nolan spoke a few weeks ago ( Southeastern Seminary). Does Dr. Akin know how many of his Chapel speakers hardly embrace one of the five points. Hunt, Price, Vines, Caners, and Nolan could not sign the Abstract with any integrity. These men are very close to methodist theology. Hello Seminary Presidents( Does it matter anymore about guest speakers in what they believe)?
If you want to listen...you can go to...and go to their webcast section to listen to the message. The message should be up soon. A friend of mine told me what he said in his message Sunday night."
That comment was so close to a talebearing gossiping woman I know that I simply cannot believe I am reading it in your prestigious blogsite, Dr. Ascol. Is this how we engage in dialog? By what someone heard someone say in the vestibule of the church? What is being whispered by others as fears the SBC has? Isn't this a hair short of a crewcut?
You know what I think, Dr. Ascol? I think you are right. "I don't think anyone has a definitive answer." And I think "there are those who speak rashly like the piercing of a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. Truthful lips shall be established forever, but a lying tongue is [credited] but for a moment."
Lately, I am having a great deal of trouble trying to distinguish one from the other. Just when I'm thinking I can begin to grasp hold of a doctrinal issue from one theological position, an argument erupts that causes me to question the view I was just considering. Politics? Definitely. Murmurings? Absolutely. Misunderstanding? Of course. But truth? I simply won't go there. I'll go back to Calvary and the Empty Tomb. SelahV
Dear greg b,
Hello, my brother. I appreciate your warm response. Too many times I think we jump to the conclusion that others are lying when they may be stating how, given their own study, they have come to interpret a particular doctrine/issue. I am glad you do not feel Dr. Price is lying.
For me, I have never understood my role primarily as a "corrector" of the Brethren--and that, even in my days as a Pastor. If I "corrected" every thing I heard in a SS class that I thought was either improperly worded or not precisely accurate, I am afraid I would lose more influence than I gain.
For me, I have come to learn that being right is not always necessary, but being loving is.
I understand, however, that since the media where Dr. Price voiced his view was a public newspaper, a public response may be, if not the best way, surely a perfectly legitimate way to respond. I only recently penned my disappointment toward Bill Curtis' post in the Baptist Courier who, to my surprise, posted it publicly on their site.
My hope ever is that in disagreement--even stark disagreement--love never lacks on either side of the aisle. Hence, with you, my Brother, I see no real benefit in demonizing those who may not have drunk from the same well as we.
May grace be yours this evening. With that, I am...
Peter
Dr. Ascol, I have not even recieved my bachelor's degree yet, and I am astonished that so many supposedly educated men are ignorant of what reformed theology actually teaches, ignorant of baptist history, and are incapable of proper exegesis. What is wrong with these men? Will somebody please send an educated, exegetical, edifying article to the Christian Index? I am worried about the Georgia Baptist Convention because we have had two pastors made radical statements against Calvinism and also Dr. Ergun Caner is speaking at the Georgia Baptist Evangelism Conference. As a student at a Georgia Baptist College and a youth minister at a Georgia Baptist Church, I am concerned about the direction of the Georgia Baptist Convention and the Southern Baptist Convention.
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
Speaking of yesterday's sermon at FBCW - Dr. Price has been on the schedule for a long time and was asked to come and preach the message he preached.
I know some of the comments on this BLOG may seem ....trite but all should understand - the attacks and misrepresentations ... the venom .. The people are exasperated and are simply expressing themselves... at least their expressions are not in a bully-pulpit
What happened last night is perpetuating division and strife in the body.
Rather than trying to help brothers and sisters who may or may not believe correctly.. they are being falsely identified / defined and being called everything but a Christian.
No brotherly love.. none can be found
By the way - By the definition Price and Vines give of a Calvinist.. I am NOT one, nor have I ever met one or read one….
Grace & Peace to You
Dear Brother g.alford,
Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, I must not have communicated so well. I will try again.
First, g.alford, my point in the response I offered you was not his speaking particularly of "Calvinism" per se. Rather, it was about the threefold implication you gave toward Dr. Price being a liar and a deceiver.
Second, if you do not appreciate the distinction I attempted to make between "being mistaken" on the one hand and "being deceitful" on the other, I guess I will just record my disagreement and move on.
Third, to confuse Dr. Price's explanation of Election with either a Dictionary of Theology's article or the BF&M's statement describing a general consensus about Election remains inexplicable to me, my Brother g.alford. Surely we are not required to quote dictionaries or even the BF&M in explaining our view of any doctrine.
But even worse, I am afraid, you seem to make Dr. Price out to be a liar because he does not so quote one of the sources you mention. How does it count for lying about a particular subject because one does not quote a particular source? And to even suggest Dr. Price possesses "dishonesty" when he honestly gives HIS view of election seems, at least to me, humorous, were it not so unfair that he is dubbed a liar for doing so.
My hope for you, my g.alford, is that, if you are a preacher, your congregation will be much more repsectful and not immediately call you a liar and a deceiver when you make a pulpit mistake--whether doctrinal, historical, factual, whatever. And you WILL make some mistakes. Trust me:)
Grace to you for this evening and Peace for tomorrow. With that, I am...
Peter
Selahv,
You appear to take exception to those on this blog, including Dr. Ascol, who have reported what has been spoken or written in the public arena by Price and others…
Gossip is the spreading of lies and is not of God… reporting and commenting on the untruths that Price and others have published is not gossip.
If we are never to challenge and confront men with their errors then how can we be faithful to God’s command of Jude 1:3 “…it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints”.
Notice that this passage actually commands us to “earnestly contend for the faith”… I submit to you that this is what this blog is all about… it is a place where we earnestly contend for the faith… and yes it is in public so that we also may be held accountable, and from personal experience I can tell you that we are held accountable. Those who sin in public are to be rebuked in public… yes that’s actually in the Bible also and it is a blade that cuts both ways.
Grace, Truth, and Blessings
Dear Brother Peter,
If you can show me one widely accepted source of theological definitions that agrees with Dr. Price’s definition of Election then I will gladly withdraw my comments and delete them…
If not, you may disagree with my tone and choice of words (I confess that I am not often accused of mincing words), but you are my dear brother attempting to defend the un-defendable… This blog is not about me and my mistakes (and yes there are plenty of them)… it is about the awful and (intentional or not) false statement made by Dr. Price…
Blessings my Brother Peter
SelahV said... "May I ask Bro. Bell the Third, Who are "they"? As a minister's wife of over 23 years I have heard "they" used to describe groups of imaginary folks in every church I've been part of. "they" won't let us, "they" have never done it that way, "they" this and "they" that. Who are "they"? A person who doesn't adhere to the Calvinist Tulip? I don't adhere to it. But I don't think I am a "they". And even in my most uncivilized moment of anger, I would never send out mobs to kill anyone. Goodness! Who are "they" that would do such things if "they" weren't under the constraints of 21st century laws?"
First off you can call me Sam or Brother Bell you can leave off the Third. I belive that we are all friends here so I will try to explaine my self.
The proverbeal "they" refers to anyone who attackes the Reformed Faith with such unrequited zeal as to cast "us" (calvinist) out of the Kingdom. Which in fact you are not one of "them".
As to the fact of your statement "And even in my most uncivilized moment of anger, I would never send out mobs to kill anyone. Goodness! Who are "they" that would do such things if "they" weren't under the constraints of 21st century laws?"
If you would noticed I stated a perioud where this would be a responce of "They" (the time of Athanasius) I would sugjest you read a book by John Pipper that is in The Swans Are Not Silent Series intitled "Contending For Our All"
It tell About an incedent at Athanasius' Church in Alexandrea, Where The church was attacked in the middle of services. Women and children and men of the faith were murderd. Why? All because Athanasius
Defended the Doctrine of the trinity aginst and over the Arians.
I know in the 21st century, this would never happen and that was precisely my point. I pray that God blesses you and keeps you. I hope that this little tid bit history moves you to study more on the history of the Church.
SOLAS
Dear g.alford,
From my perspective, my Brother, I am under the impression that it is not required when speaking of a doctrine/issue that a literal wording of a source be given unless one wants to confirm or offer evidence or substantiate...verify, if you will. Dr. Price was doing none of this.
Rather, he was offering what HE THINKS about Election and what HE THINKS most Baptists find acceptable about Election. One may object that "Dr. Price is ill-informed" or "Dr. Price is mistaken in his view of Election" or "Dr. Price possesses a totally inadequate description of Election given what most standard theological works seem to say" or "Dr. Price appears to neglect many verses of Scripture that challenges his view of Election",or "Dr. Price doesn't understand Baptist History or Theology", ad infinitum...
What troubles me, my Brother g.alford, is not, in your words, "my defense of the defenseless." I have been known to do such from time to time. Nor is it the tone of your post or the choice of your words. Rather, it is the absence of a crucial moral distinction you appear not to appreciate in your posts, g.alford.
While Dr. Price may be rightly accused of all of the above, it seems to me, that it is simply unfair to categorize him as a deceiver or a liar. It is the difference between ignorance on the one hand and deceit or the other. Ignorance calls for teaching. All liars burn in Hell.
And, if you still do not appreciate my point, my Brother g.alford, I offer to you Godspeed. With that, I am...
Peter
Brother Peter,
I sometimes get a kick out of your posts. I noticed anytime another blogger calls something like it is. You atomatialy accuse them of being to harsh or the like. Not being reverant or understanding of the persons resons for the untruthful statement. It seams to me you are sticking you head in the preverbal sand. I leave you with a passage. And I ask you Can you honestly say that our Lord and Savior was too harsh on the Pharasies?
Jhn 8:39They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing what Abraham did,40but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did.41You are doing what your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.”42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.43Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.44You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.46Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?47Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
Brother Peter,
I appreciate the dialog also… but I think we are off topic just a little.
The issue is not the absence of any “crucial moral distinction” on my part between intentional deception and deception by mistake… unless you are in possession of some information (like an email from Dr. Price) that I am not that would lead you to the sure knowledge that Dr. Price has made a horrible mistake and that he wishes to make a correction.
Otherwise (intentional or not) the error, and thereby the deception, remain… his words spoken/written in public have inevitably caused some of God’s people to wrongly believe his definition of the doctrine of Election, and thereby they will inevitably wrongly interpret the meaning of this word as found in the Scriptures.
Every Minister of the Holy Scriptures will give an account of each and every word that he has spoken or written… As a pastor, I have made public mistakes from the pulpit and in print… and I have (without exception) never failed to issue the proper correction from the pulpit or in print.
If the error was unintentional on the part of Dr. Price… he above all should desire, without delay, to issue a correction.
I will now relent and yield my brother… your point is well stated and understood.
Grace, Truth, and Blessings
G.Alford: Thank you for your information. I have been studying about the atrocities to early Christians who were beheaded, burned and wives and children drowned for daring to speak of what you and I obviously agree could be nothing but the truth of Christ. I was referred to sites by some kindhearted Calvinists who shared their blogsites with me.
It has broken my heart to see what Christian men and women who loved Christ endured and were murdered for as heretics in the early church. It is indeed gratifying we live in the 21st century where we do not ever have to worry about that happening. I don't think Iraq, Iran, Russia, Africa, China and Indonesia counts in this conversation. I am glad you and I do not have to worry about it (at this time), though.
I wholeheartedly agree with you on Jude 1:3 in which the author writes "it is indeed needful for me to write to YOU, and exhort YOU, that YOU should earnestly contend for the faith...."
You also said, "If we are never to challenge and confront men with their errors then how can we be faithful to God's command of Jude 1:3?" My point exactly, dear Bro. shouldn't we be taking Dr. Nelson to task rather than displaying the ire and anger on this forum? I don't know. I am merely stating what I see as a pattern of back and forth toward folks who in my opinion all love the Lord. Why the reformed, uninformed, pre-formed and deformed find such sport in pot-shotting each other is beyond me.
I have appreciated Dr. Ascol's site. He has been very kind to even let me dialog here. I've received warm advice from some here on the doctrines they adhere to. But some step far beyond Jude 1:3 in earnestly seeking to exhort a brother for whatever he or she believes.
I find it sad, disheartening and difficult to explain to others who are reading these sites yet do not dare enter the arena to discuss with those who carry such big swords sharpened to cut 4 ways rather than two.
And I appreciate the fact that you took me to task for what you considered me taking another to task, though I hadn't meant to include you in on that since I hadn't written to you in response to anything you had said, till you took me to task. But do understand, dear Brother, I am asking questions. I am trying to understand what this is all about. It is very difficult to hear the truth above the din of anger and malice.
I had already read what Nelson Price had written in the Index, before I even read the Humpty Dumpty Theology Dr. Ascol wrote in response to Nelson. I found it while I was looking for a letter I'd written to the editor to be printed in the same issue.
When I arrived here at Founders, where I frequent to gain insights, and found the Humpty Dumpty Theology, I was probably fourth on the scene. Long before the other parties arrived to dialog. The bus story baffled me too. And I was reading through Nelson's site to gain a perspective on why he took the views he did. I felt he would have been honest with me had I contacted him. And I still plan to do so.
Forgive me for interfering in your exhorting, challenging and confronting Dr. Price for his errors. I didn't know he was reading this blog. I thought you were talking about him and discussing among the commenters what an "ignorant, liar he was". I mis-read the posts. I'll go back and read them again.
No need to worry about me and what I think. I'm nobody. I have no degrees. I am un-informed. I am totally without the knowledge and understanding to the doctrines which you all are so educatedly speaking. So I promise, I won't interfere again. I'll continue to sit silently on my pew with my head covered and eyes closed.
May God's greatest blessings surround all of you in this discussion. May your hearts be enriched with God's grace and the fellowship of one another as you share your hearts. SelahV
My Brother Samuel,
Hello. Know I am glad to give you a kick by what I write. For me, kicks are to be much preferred over curses.
As for dealing with harsh responses, I think there are times when bluntness is appropriate. There seems to be no intrinsic wrongness in being blunt and to the point--as your Scripture you cite demonstrates quite nicely, I might add.
What I sense you are missing, Samuel, is that your apparent equation between Dr. Price's alleged misunderstanding of Election and his being a Pharisaical "son of Satan" demonstrates just as nicely that the concern I raised with our g.alford remains valid. The issue is not about calling a spade a spade. Rather it is about treating your opponent the way you yourself would desire to be treated--a person made in God's image, fallen yet redeemed by Christ's blood.
Sadly, while Jesus' words are appropriate for sons of satan, you, Samuel, seem to apply His words to sons of God. For me, I simply remain uninterested in drinking that brew. Dr. Price, from my view, deserves better.
Indeed our Lord possessed a much more apt word for sons of God: "by this all will know that you are my disciples if you have love for one another".
It's late. I must head back to my sandpile. I've been out way too long :) I trust your evening a restful one.
With that, I am...
Peter
I have listened to the sermon that Dr. Prince preached this past Sunday evening at First Baptist Church Woodstock and am a bit confused about his teaching of heathens in remote parts of the world "sending up signals" (his words) that they either want to know God or that they don't want to know God. According to Dr. Prince, God responds to the "heathen" based on the signal sent to Him. He says that God sends the Gospel to these lost folks based on the "signal" that they send up to God. This comes after the really poor analogy of the bus stop that misrepresents what Calvinists believe. Perhaps this is done completely out of ignorance of what Calvinism teaches but it is somewhat interesting that Dr. Prince is able to very eloquently quote Granville Sharp's rule and apply it to Scripture in order to show the deity of Christ from the text, yet he doesn't exhibit the same consistency and accuracy when dealing with terms like election and predestination.
I apologize for calling him Dr. Prince instead of Dr. Price above.
Brother Peter,
I confess I am a Calvinst with a sense of humor. I know that is rare but not as rare as one might think. I understand that Dr. Price is not a Pharisaical "son of Satan" . He is though grossly mis representing true biblical Calvinism. So he is in error, and if he does not retract or admit his statements are in error then he is promoteing a falsehood. So for all objective purposes he could be labeld a liar. That was all I was trying to say. Brother Peter I enjoy you take on things. If you would be so kind as to check out my blog and let me know what you think about some of my articles. the Blog site is samtheman21.blogspot.com.
In Him
While the SBC may not be ready for such a dialog I think it is desperately needed. As an example I'll offer this: Most of the church members I talk to will readily agree that sin is bad--I.e., we all sin, we're sinners. However, nearly all of them equivocate on the concept of SIN (total/radical depravity) as that thing that completely separates us from God. Frankly I haven't been able to get past this necessary point in discussions with any church member ever. Very few pastors I've known even want to go there.
The root of the problem, I've found, is that no one seriously wants to engage the Sovereignty of God in any way because of fear--and thats why they feel threatened. The general they are afraid of how it affects evangelism and worship style and even our polity. (Not to mention the bottom line of the CP--guilty Christians are giving Christians). I'm preaching to the choir here, but all one really has to do is compare the current Baptist Faith and Message with something like the Abstract of Principles and its pretty obvious. There's a serious shift from God to Man and we're all about the Man and his ability to choose right now.
Josh
"...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
Price's attack is amazing when one considers what a drastic change has taken place in Georgia over the last 100 years. The very Baptist paper in which Price submitted his article pledged at one time to uphold those very doctrines.
Dr. Gregory Wills of SBTS has done some eye-opening research on the doctrines that were embraced by a majority of Georgia Baptists in the 19th century. In his book "Democratic Religion", Wills describes the doctrinal position of the editors of the Christian Index during this period: "When T.P. Bell assumed editorial responsibiities, he pledged that the paper would "stand, as it has done in years gone by, for the 'Old Theology.'" So frequently did the editors write and publish articles on Calvinist theology that a PLEDGE TO PROPAGATE CALVINISM seemed almost a prerequisite for holding the editor's chair. As late as 1899, the paper ran a six-month series on Calvinism's "doctrines of grace." What a 180! I wonder if Price is aware of this.
Furthermore, Wills has described in his research the doctrines predominately espoused by Georgia Baptist churches: "As early as 1800, most Arminian Baptists in the South had either died or been converted to Calvinistic ideas. The first enduring Armenian Baptist churches appeared in Georgia around 1830, under the leadership of Cyrus White. By 1846, Arminian Baptists numbered almost 2,000, but only accounted for only 3 percent of Georgia's 58,000 Baptists. By 1870, of some 115,000 Georgia Baptists, only 808 were members of Arminian Baptist churches."
Now, my question to Nelson Price would be, how in the world did those churches in Georgia grow if "evangelical Calvinism" is an oxymoron?
Tom,
I submitted a letter to the Christian Index which may be included in the next issue. We'll see. I tried to quickly address several issues in a short amount of space. You can read my submission on my recent post at www.hereiblog.com
Thanks...
JohnMark: Hello JonMark: First of all, let me say thankyou. I appreciate the fact that you took your concerns regarding Dr. Price's public letter to the Index. I also appreciate you taking time to explain your position on evangelical Calvinism or Reformed believers at your site.
I am not well-versed in this as you know. I've been on other sites where I've seen you post. I am learning. I appreciate men and women who will dialog about their faith. I was wondering from your post, if those whom some call Calvinist are not followers of Calvin, but instead reformed, then why do reformed connect themselves so tightly to Calvin? Shouldn't they simply be reformed? And if one is Reformed, what are they reformed from?
It is when the Protestant faith separated from the Catholic faith?
I know this is a lot of questions, but since you are the only one who I saw taking the issue with Price to its source, I felt you would feel free to explain these questions to me. Also, in what information I've gathered from the Calvinist community, I have been quite confused about the evangelism issue. Not from anything Price said. But from the views Calvinists and Reformed believers espouse.
You said, "It’s not a question of “Whosoever will?” but of “Who will?” Help me here, JohnMark. I seem to hear in the Calvinist, Reformed Church thoughts: It's not ARE you saved, it's Can you Be Saved? How far off am I in my thinking on this last statement?
Dr. Ascol, could you answer my last question to JohnMark, also? I would really appreciate it. SelahV
Peter wrote:
"Unfortunately, I do not share your view that the bus gig is the proverbial strawman which, many times, is purposely employed to misrepresent a view in order to defeat it. I personally think Dr. Price thinks he HAS been fair to Calvinist thinking"
Peter, I don't know which is worse quite frankly, his using a straw man to try to misrepresent Calvinism or your other option which is that he is completely and utterly ignorant of a major theological viewpoint's teachings. Given his education and years in the ministry, I tend to think the latter is worse than the former.
Indeed. I have been in e-mail communication with Dr. Price, and he seems to think he knows Calvinism pretty well, thank you. This is not mere ignorance for want of information, it is willful ignorance. He is not interested in any sort of dialogue on the article, and refused to even acknowledge my criticism of his bus illustration. In fact his reply bore so little relation to what I had said I suspect it is a form of some kind.
The Calvinists have been e-mailing him.
Not that I like to call myself a Calvinist. I prefer, for historical reasons, to be known as a Particular Baptist.
SelahV wrote:
ou said, "It's not a question of "Whosoever will?" but of "Who will? Help me here, JohnMark. I seem to hear in the Calvinist, Reformed Church thoughts: It's not ARE you saved, it's Can you Be Saved? How far off am I in my thinking on this last statement?
Dr. Ascol, could you answer my last question to JohnMark, also? I would really appreciate it. SelahV
I am not sure I understand your question. If you are asking me how far off you are in your thinking about what you seem to hear in Reformed churches, then I can't really give an answer, because that may be what you seem to be hearing. As I always say in premarital counseling, communication is difficult even under the most ideal of circumstances. There are always 6 messages present in any conversation: what you said, what you think you said, what I think you said. Then there is what I said, what I think I said, and what you think I said. The further apart those 6 things are, the less we have communicated.
On the other hand, if by your question you are seeking to know if Reformed churches are more intersted in knowing whether a person can be saved rather than if he is saved, I would simply say, "no." The fact that any sinner is saved demonstrates that any sinner can be saved. Our theology teaches that. This is the power of God's grace--it is sovereignly administered.
I hope I have come close to addressing your concerns. Blessings, tom
Dear Brother Larry,
The point of my post to you was to distinguish mistakenness about a view on the one hand and intentional deception on the other. Evidently from your response, you feel intentional deception is to be prefered over being sincerely mistaken. You, my Brother, have my express permission to accept such if you wish.
I trust your evening a pleasant one. With that, I am...
Peter
Dr. Ascol, I like your approach. Thank you for your gracious response to my obviously obtuse question. Forgive me. I didn't think about the fact that the way I understand what reformed church teaches might factor into my question and how it may be interpreted. I will try to better phrase it. Would you mind if we took one question at a time? Not because you can't handle more than one question, but because I may not be able to phrase it, explain it and give you enough history behind my understanding of my question to ask it in a way you might understand the meaning of what I mean when I ask it. :)
First, are the elect the only people going to heaven? If you need to know what I mean by elect, then just tell me your own theology of what elect means then tell me if the elect are the only ones going to heaven. thanks...selahV
SelahV: Only those sinners who have been elected by God will be saved and therefore will go to heaven. That is my short answer. For a more thorough one, please send this little booklet called, A Southern Baptist Looks at the Biblical Doctrine of Election that we publish.
Peter, I'd probably term it 'inexcusably mistaken' rather than sincerely mistaken. However, you have a point that the desire to deceive would really be worse than failure to understand. However, theology is something Nelson Price should understand. Its not like he's a first year seminary student.
God bless...
Larry
Guys and Ladies:
I have had a couple of exchanges via email with Rev. Price. We have not done much to discuss what we see as each others errors, but really how Christian bros and sisters should treat each other. He has recieved some very ugly mail from "Grace folks" (used with a bit of sarcasm). It has become obvious to me through my own walk that Soveriegn Grace should humble me. It should make me zealous for the truth, but also understanding of the limits we (all humans and all Christians)live with in this fallen world. I rebuke you (albeit through electronic distance) to consider if you emailed or contacted Rev. Price and your communication to him was anything less that edifying and God honoring, to seek his forgiveness. From what he has recieved, I would say many could and should be brought up on church discipline charges (whether by a fellow beliver or church leadership). Our ideals for Biblical Church and Christian Behaviour is no less valid in our treatment of those we disagree with and non-believers. We have not shown Dr. Price the practical outgrowth of the truths we espouse, but the divisive spirit many fear is a part of Calvinism. I thank Peter who braves this board to show us our pride, for Tom who truly gives us things to consider and moderates us and for others who have tried to bring love for others into our conversation, but today, with where God has taken us, we owe Him and Dr. Price more than just softening our language. If I had seen the prideful side of Calvinism before the Bible thoroughly convinced me of its validity, I doubt I would have studied with an open mind. God would have had to bring me a mental breakdown to do so.
With love to my brothers and sisters on this Board and that fight for truth in their congregations and associations.
Greg B
Selahv, you said:
First, are the elect the only people going to heaven? If you need to know what I mean by elect, then just tell me your own theology of what elect means then tell me if the elect are the only ones going to heaven. thanks...selahV
I would add that you not only consider what Dr. Ascol has said, but look at the Scripture. I believe that the section most pertinent to your question would be John 6, starting around v. 32. Then in John 10, starting v. 22.
All the Best,
Bill
Dr. Ascol,
Do you hold to Covenant Theology in that children of the elect will be elected based on the election of their parents?
This is one that came to me the other day and quite naturally concerns me. Can you help me understand what is meant by this?
Blessings,
Tim
Dear Tim:
This is the weakest link in Presbyterian understanding of the covenant. Fred Malone has a great Baptist treatment of this in his book "Baptism of Disciples Alone" and a booklet called A String of Pearls Unstrung. Walt Chantry also has a good booklet explaining the Baptist understanding (Biblical understanding of the Covenant). I doubt you would find any Reformed Bapstist that would think the birth of someone into a family was much more than a blessing in being born to and raised by Christian parents and exposed to the gospel. It takes a work of the Holy Spirit in each persons life to bring them into the New Covenant.
Greg
Greg -
I am sure that some people have written some pretty harsh e-mails to Dr. Price. Maybe some people are in need of apologizing.
But I wonder, is Dr. Price going to apologize to Calvinists for the lies he told about them? Is he going to be "disciplined" for lying? Or is it only sinful to point out lies? (Is that even sinful?)
I am sure that he has received some "unfriendly" e-mail. But I am sure he is also a little defensive. I seriously doubt anyone blasted him with the same amount of hatred and misrepresentation he treated those with whom he disagreed.
I have a feeling he is of the same mind as his friend Johnny Hunt in this regard. They absically believe that if you criticize what they say, then you are attacking them. I would hope that Dr. Price would realize that the minute you make public statements, your statements stand under scrutiny. It wasn't like that 20 years ago, but it is now. If you can't stand the criticism, then don't say things worthy of criticism.
His statements were poor. They were ignorant of the issues at hand. They misrepresented those whom he would call brothers. I would hope he is man enough to take the criticism, because it is definitely deserved.
If his misrepresentations (lies) were out of ignorance...then he'd should admit he doesn;t know what he's talking about and he should stop talking about it.
But since he's claimed to have studied the issue for over 50 years, one could only conclude that his comments were purposefully misrepresenting Calvinists.
Have you called Him out on this?
You rebuked those here (which if they were mean and unfair, then they need to be rebuked)...but did you rebuke him for his statements?
Be fair, my friend.
Tim:
I would say amen to what Greg has written. I am covenantal in my understanding of biblical theology. But my view is not that of Presbyterian (or paedobaptistic) covenant theology. Some equate covenant theology with paedobaptism. I think that is a mistake.
I do not think anyone is elected based on their family connections. That has been a sticky wicket for our Presbbyterian friends to work out, and they have done so in a variety of ways, some of which contradict each other. Fred Malone's book is the best treatment of this issue I know.
Having said all of that, we Baptists have generally not done a very good job (at least in recent times) with articulating a theology of children (IMHO). My children, though unable to claim any salvific work because of their relation to me, can say thi